Hello from Atlanta GA

[Tony]

I dare say that not all dart froggers are arrogant and not all casual froggers live in run-down trailer parks. The broad generalizations, while inducing pretty funny images, aren't doing much to keep this respectful.

My trailer park comment was directed solely toward my favorite short man, not all casual frog owners. He has thoroughly earned my lack of respect.

[EpicFrogMan]

My trailer park comment was directed solely toward my favorite short man, not all casual frog owners. He has thoroughly earned my lack of respect.

Like i care about some random kid from Oregons respect. There are not many trailer parks in southern california by the way. Thats something you would find in Oregon along with meth labs where you're from.

Also im 5'11. That is average. Not quite Napolean.

Someone post some hybrid frog pictures just to get these guys panties more in a bunch,

[SethD]

Like i care about some random kid from Oregons respect. There are not many trailer parks in southern california by the way. Thats something you would find in Oregon along with meth labs where you're from.

Also im 5'11. That is average. Not quite Napolean.

Someone post some hybrid frog pictures just to get these guys panties more in a bunch,

Kurt is right about one thing you know, the best way to "win" an argument is not to insult people, the best way to "win" is to relax, laugh, and shrug it off when they attack you. That either has the effect of toning things down and enabling a reasonable conversation or making them look silly and unreasonable when they continue the insults for no good reason. Either way you win.

[EpicFrogMan]

Im not trying to win any argument, this tony kid came into my hybrid horned frog thread disrespected everybody and crapped it all up. Im just returning the favor. Im also defending myself when he calls me trailer trash Napoleaon. Am i not allowed to defend myself?

[SethD]

Im not trying to win any argument, this tony kid came into my hybrid horned frog thread disrespected everybody and crapped it all up. Im just returning the favor. Im also defending myself when he calls me trailer trash Napoleaon. Am i not allowed to defend myself?

You can do what you like, I was just telling you the most effective way to respond and earn peoples respect. If someone is trashing you it really doesn't prove anything if you trash them back in the same way. That makes both sides look silly and more often than not you will find other people not directly involved will think both sides look bad. However if you are trashed, but don't respond in kind it will either defuse the situation or make the other guy look silly and like a big jerk if he keeps it up. Everyone will also think better of you for it either way. Of course this does require self control because it is easier and more natural to try to trash the other guy back as bad or worse than he trashed you, but doing so not only accomplishes nothing it generally tends to cause other people to loose respect for you. Just a little life lesson that serves everyone well that learns it... However it is really something you have to figure out yourself as it isn't something that can be easily taught since the natural reaction is the opposite.

[poison beauties]

I get it, it's not that your trying to "rule" the rest of the hobby, it is just that the rest of the hobby is so stupid and unlearned that your doing this all for our good. We should be so ashamed for disagreeing with the the brilliant, hard working dart froggers who have come to giude us out of darkness into enlightenment. Forgive us.

I hate to break it to you but the dart frog hobbys frogs are not going to be used for reintroductions either unless "maybe" and this is a big maybe, the species in question is totally extict in the wild. It is a dream, but a highly unrealistic one.

I have been following the hobby since the early 90's. It has changed sure, going wrong tends to be a matter of perspective. If your talking about high priced morphs and such, eventually it will balance out, it always does.

You know the attitude and level of arrogance you and a lot of dart froggers like you have almost makes me hope your project flops. However I would like to see more such species established so I wish you success even though success would most likely just add another level of silly arrogance to your attitude.

No I do not think the rest of the hobby is stupid, just a few of them and I can back it up with facts. Its not just Dart Frogger that try. Our end of the hobby just seems to be more focused on advancing. Enlightenment is on the way.

And as for the reinto bit you threw out, Do you really think all these species wont be gone in time? Look at the Madagascan species, look at the SA species. Standard Lamasi are almost wiped out in the wild, Annae almost went down and their are many others and for many reasons. You are sadly mistaken if you think anything on a large scale can be done without us. Its us the hobbyists that do our part and head south to help out where we can. The only ones that will hurt in time are the importers. Perhalps they should have focused on captive breeding rather than bringing in everything they could to make a buck and we may not have the issues. If more work was done to promote better aptive breeding practices and distribution of these critters imports would not be needed now.

Ive been a part of the herp hobby since the early 90's as well and I can tell you that greed and lack of better judgement has held us back. If these guys that brought all this stuff in would have worked a bit harder to keep track of exactly where it came from and whats unrelated to what we would probably be to the point imports would not be needed for stuff thats already here.,

High prices and morphs are nothing as its the buyers who control the market. The extra attention put towards selective breeding is a bit disturbing but almost everyone has been a part of it at times including me. All we can do is learn.

As for my attitude and level of arrogance all I can say s I have the best interest for our hobby and will step on toes yes but its only out of the dedication to our hobby as Im very much known for helping out others when they need it. I can asure you no matter how much you wish my project would fail, It wont. I heard the same stuff when I took on reticulata in groups and I came out on top and Im sure I nded up with the largest collection of them in the hobby. It will go the same with the rain frogs and like the retics I will hand them out to ensure they get a foothold and stick around.

Dendroboard Dart froggers, they are so smart, witty and lovable.

Im not a DB Dart Frogger. I chime in to help others and supply the hobby with micro fauna. I have grown tired of the offtopic stuff over there. I belong to a dart board that actually takes a stance against your BS hybrid support and breeding. Your welcome to come over there and say your peace.

I am only a semi-regular on dendroboard and since I personally pretty much got out of darts a number of years ago I go there mostly for what talk there is on other portions of the hobby as well as to talk to a few friends. I was on dendroboard for a bit when it first started several years ago, got tired of it and left, then came back this spring when the melanophryniscus started coming in and there was a lot of interest expressed in that over there. Otherwise my visits have been fairly sporadic over the years. Further I don't really have "a lot of hate towards dart froggers" I have friends in that community and there are still reasonable people over there. I don't have anything against dart froggers except what so many of them have become these days. Things change and while years ago most people in the dart frogger community were friendly and helpful now a large portion of them are arrogant, nasty, and think their collections and hobby are somehow going to "save the frogs" while also thinking anyone who disagrees with their point of view is an idiot. When I find a dart frogger that doesn't fit that increasingly common mold I have no problem with them at all and we usually get along fine.

Well if you were working with Darts years ago you would know they were more arrogant, nasty and were nothing in the way of being helpfull to new hobbyists, I know this as I joined that part of the hobby in 1999 and without the boards I had to do alot of work to get it right. You have no clue how many dart frog breeders wanted to keep their techniques secret then. How well off would you be without the boards? Id still be flourishing, I have friends all over and can get what I need without the boards. I only came back to help others.

Normal corn snakes are available for those who want them, it is not that they have been lost, it is just that a lot of people like color morphs. If you are a "natural snake" fan there are still a enormous number of possibilities and your options have not diminished. It is just that other things are more popular. That is true of all species with a lot of morphs on the market. The morphs didn't destroy the natural part of the hobby, they just added to it. If it isn't an issue of just wanting everyone in the hobby to like only "natural" animals because that is what you personally like show me examples in the reptile or amphibian hobby where color mutations or what have you made "natural" animals wild colorations unavailable. They didn't do that, what they did was bring a lot of new people into the hobby and create new fans for that particular type of animal. To use your example, people kept corn snakes before all the mutations started, but the number of keepers exploded once more and more morphs became available. I wonder if some of the anti-morph anti-hybrid-anything sentiment in some people is more due to a concern that a lot of new people with view not exactly like theirs could enter the hobby. I guess it depends on your point of view if new people in the hobby is a good or bad thing.

Im not concerned with the new comers to the hobby as far as your anti hybrid sentiment go's. I have more than enough knowledge to help them out and show them another point of view. If you think Selective Breeding and Hybridization are going to win out over time your wrong. Many species are disapearing and many more are in need. People will see the importance of keeping a natural piece of nature when nature no longer supplies them.
As far as the last two pages go Im seeing nothing but a bunch of sissy fighting. You cant come up with one benefit to hybridization or selective breeding. So why support it?

Michael

[Nelson]

Uh guys, after reading all the posts may i ask:

Scientifically speaking why is it wrong to create hybrid frogs?

And please don't say that's because in the wild they don't exist since someone told that hybrid herps are accepted and they don't exist in the wild too

[SethD]

As for my attitude and level of arrogance all I can say s I have the best interest for our hobby and will step on toes yes but its only out of the dedication to our hobby as Im very much known for helping out others when they need it. I can asure you no matter how much you wish my project would fail, It wont. I heard the same stuff when I took on reticulata in groups and I came out on top and Im sure I nded up with the largest collection of them in the hobby. It will go the same with the rain frogs and like the retics I will hand them out to ensure they get a foothold and stick around.

Haa there is nothing like overconfidence in action. Dart frogs are a bit different than explosive breeders. Like I said originally though I wish you success even though I do have my doubts and am so far not exactly impressed with you personally. I have to wonder a bit just how capable someone is that is so overconfident. I find that the most capable people are rarely the ones dripping with overconfidence in their own abilities, even when it might be justified. However if your so supremely confident can you give an estimate of when your going to have froglets available? Hopefully that isn't to much to ask, that way I can be glad for you if you make your ETA or at least come close, or have a private little chuckle if you never succeed at all or miss the mark by more than a year or so. That way I can mentally mark you down as either a bragger that can at least sometimes live up to his boasting yet another over confident dart frogger who talks a good game but can't come even close to matching his boasting with non-dart species. If your that confident and have come to enlighten and correct everyone else who "doesn't know as much" as you do I would think that would be the least you can do.

Im not a DB Dart Frogger. I chime in to help others and supply the hobby with micro fauna. I have grown tired of the offtopic stuff over there. I belong to a dart board that actually takes a stance against your BS hybrid support and breeding. Your welcome to come over there and say your peace.

why would I want to? I have no quarrel to pick with people who see things differently but leave the rest of the hobby alone, I only bother to argue when they come to other parts of the hobby with the goal of trashing people that don't agree with them.

Well if you were working with Darts years ago you would know they were more arrogant, nasty and were nothing in the way of being helpfull to new hobbyists, I know this as I joined that part of the hobby in 1999 and without the boards I had to do alot of work to get it right. You have no clue how many dart frog breeders wanted to keep their techniques secret then.

Lol, yes I remember those days, but it certainly don't remember the secretiveness you describe, I remember a great deal of exchange of information and ideas and by and large a friendly attitude. Certainly not the level of militancy and overconfidence so many show today. Maybe it was just your circle of contacts or maybe if you came across the same way then that you do now you just rubbed people the wrong way and they didn't feel like sharing much with you.

How well off would you be without the boards? Id still be flourishing, I have friends all over and can get what I need without the boards. I only came back to help others.

Lol, I don't really feel the need to answer that. Those who know me know the answer to that, and I don't really care that much what others may think one way or another. It is pretty silly to get into an "I know more than you do" or an "I bred this and that and you haven't" argument. I won't be drawn into that as such is nothing but an ego match and ego matches make both sides look like immature children. Suffice it to say I have had fun in the hobby for a while.