Hello from Atlanta GA

[SethD]

There seems to be a problem here. Im seeing alot of opinion supporting hybridization and it seems to mostly be those who say they dont mix. Im wondering if some of you arent just out to start ****. If you seriously cant find a natural frog you actually like than this hobby is not for you.

Don't you think it is a little humorous that you come to the board by your own admission because you "heard about" the little anti-hybrid ruckus that one guy decided to raise over someone else's pet horned frog and now you are saying you think other people are out to stir something up because they don't agree with you? Remember this forum has not had a problem with anti-hybrid-anything extremists harassing people for their choice of pet frogs in the past, this is something new. Before no one found it necessary to lecture on the subject as if anyone who liked or produced a hybrid frog was an idiot, greedy, or somehow out to destroy the hobby. I also think your my way or the highway attitude about the hobby is a little humorous. Implying that if someone likes or has a hybrid they have the wrong hobby is kind of silly. Believe it or not yours is not the only point of view and the hobby does not begin or end with a narrow circle of like minded dart frog hobbyists who have developed their own personal code of ethics about all sorts of things and wish to thrust it into other areas of the hobby and upon other people that don't really need or want it. You won't succeed in doing that anyway, all that you will succeed in doing is in creating unnecessary conflict between many of those that are primarily dart froggers and those not so closely tied to that particular portion of the amphibian hobby. There is no reason why froggers from one part of the hobby should call froggers from another part of the hobby "greedy" and "unethical" just because they don't see the hobby through the same color lens. It is unfortunate that more dart froggers can't accept the fact that just because something doesn't fit their personal preferences and the accepted template in their portion of the hobby it is no Casus bellum on much of the rest of the frog hobby.

[Tony]

It is unfortunate that more dart froggers can't accept the fact that just because something doesn't fit their personal preferences and the accepted template in their portion of the hobby it is no Casus bellum on much of the rest of the frog hobby.

Have you ever stopped to consider where all of the major advancements in the hobby are coming from? Where the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate? Which part of the hobby has the highest number of captive bred frogs available, often with bloodline and locality data? The answer is the dart frog community. Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs. My goal in the hobby is to establish as many tree frogs species in captivity as I possibly can, and to do it with the accuracy and dedication that I have learned on the dart side. "The rest of the hobby" is a disorganized mess of casual owners, people who want to turn frogs into the next corn snake or leopard gecko, and a few true hobbyists who have the vision and the ambition to bring the respectability of the dart frog hobby to other frogs. If I can do my part to rally those few people and accomplish something positive I don't care how many fantasy frog owners I upset along the way.

[SethD]

Have you ever stopped to consider where all of the major advancements in the hobby are coming from? Where the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate?

That is pretty subjective since most of the "advances" in the hobby dart frog hobbyists make are relevant primarily to dart frogs. As far as the dart frog hobby being where "the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate" sure there are plenty of knowledgeable people there. There are also plenty of knowledgeable people in other areas too though I agree the dart frog hobby is larger than the "other frogs" portion of the hobby.

Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs..... "The rest of the hobby" is a disorganized mess of casual owners, people who want to turn frogs into the next corn snake or leopard gecko, and a few true hobbyists who have the vision and the ambition to bring the respectability of the dart frog hobby to other frogs. If I can do my part to rally those few people and accomplish something positive I don't care how many fantasy frog owners I upset along the way.

You know I think most of that portion of your post speaks for itself. I know you have a lot of tree frogs right now. I also know from reading your posts in other forums that you have been spending a lot of money lately and got most of them within the past six months. As far as that is concerned more power to you. However if the vast majority of the "primary focus of your collection" was acquired within the past six months and by your own admission in the amphibian section of the gecko forum you had your first clutch from a "leaf breeding species" on 09/19/2010 I still consider you more of a dart frogger than a tree frog focused hobbyist. That is not to say you won't grow into one and its not to say your not capable now either, I don't know about that and I am not putting you down for that, but it is to say that you seem to have acquired most of your attitude and positions from the dart frog hobby and now seem to be trying to imply that you have not. As part of the "disorganized mess of casual owners" I suppose, I would rather have new people who may or may not know a lot, but who are willing to learn, willing to use logic, willing to work through things themselves, and don't have their nose so high in the air and think so highly of themselves that they are perfectly happy to step all over anyone and everyone, call them idiots, and view them as rabble purely because they have a difference of opinion on some issues.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Well said Seth

[Tony]

There are also plenty of knowledgeable people in other areas too though I agree the dart frog hobby is larger than the "other frogs" portion of the hobby.

Not even close, look at the pet stores, kingsnake ads and import numbers, the "other frogs" outnumber darts by a huge margin, but most of them disappear into the disorganized mess and die instead of being cared for by dedicated hobbyists.

I also know from reading your posts in other forums that you have been spending a lot of money lately and got most of them within the past six months. As far as that is concerned more power to you.

I got my first exotic frogs in 1993, a pair of wild caught red eyed tree frogs which lived under my care until 1999 along with a number of other frogs. I had to take a break from the hobby from 2000-2006 while I served my country, and rejoined the hobby in late 2008. Guess what frogs were the first in my new collection? Red eyes again, followed shortly by Phyllomedusa hypochondrialis. A little over a year later they are thriving and breeding for me, and my collection is growing now that I have the means to pursue what I have wanted to do since I was a kid with his first frogs 17 years ago. Sucking on mommy and daddy's teat instead of serving your country and making your way on your own does not make you a superior frogger, just an immature man-child.

[SethD]

Sucking on mommy and daddy's teat instead of serving your country and making your way on your own does not make you a superior frogger, just an immature man-child.

Dendroboard Dart froggers, they are so smart, witty and lovable.

[Tony]

Dendroboard Dart froggers, they are so smart, witty and lovable.

When you don't have a relevant response, avoid the topic and make jokes.

[EpicFrogMan]

Most of you dart frog tree frog owners are sounding like a bunch of arrogant self proclaimed know it alls. This Tony kid comes to the horned frog section calls the whole Horned Frog community a joke, Bashed Philippe Vosjoli who has written more books and owned more animals than this guy will ever in his lifetime and the moderator didnt even care..talk about BIASED anyone??

Tony you have no impact in the herp world regardless of what you are doing up in boom**** Oregon. Your opinion = Garbage

[Kurt]

Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs.

Same here, my main focus are treefrogs particularly those of the Neotropical region. I also agree that man-made-morphs and hybrids are just plain wrong, maybe a little evil. Why do people feel the need to make wild animals into domestic animals? If you want something like that get a dog. What attracts me to frogs (and wild animals in general) is the fact that they are natural and untampered with, a slice of the wild. I want what I have to be just like I would find it in the great outdoors. I think that bringing hybrids into batraculture will eventually make the hobby more about domesticated amphibians and less about of the wild and mother nature, and I think that is just sad. Look at corn snakes, they're just about domestic animals at this point.

So people please stop tampering with the natural order. There are plenty of species out there to keep you busy. That's why I wrote the Meet The Frog Series. I wrote it to expose people to what is actually out there. Of course some of it is beyond the reach of most of us, but there are some in the series that are quite attainable. Just go to CalPhotos: Animals and be blown away by what you see.

[SethD]

What attracts me to frogs (and wild animals in general) is the fact that they are natural and untampered with, a slice of the wild. I want what I have to be just like I would find it in the great outdoors. I think that bringing hybrids into batraculture will eventually make the hobby more about domesticated amphibians and less about of the wild and mother nature, and I think that is just sad. Look at corn snakes, they're just about domestic animals at this point.

Normal corn snakes are available for those who want them, it is not that they have been lost, it is just that a lot of people like color morphs. If you are a "natural snake" fan there are still a enormous number of possibilities and your options have not diminished. It is just that other things are more popular. That is true of all species with a lot of morphs on the market. The morphs didn't destroy the natural part of the hobby, they just added to it. If it isn't an issue of just wanting everyone in the hobby to like only "natural" animals because that is what you personally like show me examples in the reptile or amphibian hobby where color mutations or what have you made "natural" animals wild colorations unavailable. They didn't do that, what they did was bring a lot of new people into the hobby and create new fans for that particular type of animal. To use your example, people kept corn snakes before all the mutations started, but the number of keepers exploded once more and more morphs became available. I wonder if some of the anti-morph anti-hybrid-anything sentiment in some people is more due to a concern that a lot of new people with view not exactly like theirs could enter the hobby. I guess it depends on your point of view if new people in the hobby is a good or bad thing.