Hello from Atlanta GA

[Tony]

Tony weren't you the one who purchased the imported red eyes with white eyes just a month ago? You can't tell me you didn't buy them simply because they looked cool and different.

That is precisely why, it was a cool and different NATURAL variation.

And when you breed them you'll be charging more for the ones that have the white eyes. Just because a hobbiest didn't make those white eyes doesn't make it different. You'll still be breeding for a variation of the normal Red Eye. And didn't we just say that the original colors were best.

It is very different, being a natural occurrence and not a forced pairing like if I were to breed him to an A. annae or A. moreletii.

Also, if we want to get into another ethical arguement. Why would you find it ethical to purchase wild caught red eyes when they are so abundantly available as captive bred? Aren't you encouraging the frog trafficers to keep taking frogs from the wild no matter how many die before they are ever sold to the public?

I prefer to start with wild caught stock whenever possible to ensure a genetically diverse founding population instead of inbreeding frogger X's frogs who probably brought inbred frogs from frogger Y who bought inbred frogs from frogger Z and so on. Red eyes are a species of least concern on the IUCN redlist, imports are not hurting their wild populations.

[SethD]

thats not completely true. I know a couple froggers (not naming names) who only own "beginner frogs" are are HIGHLY respected in the comunity.

Oh I am sure there are exceptions, but it does tend to be true as a general rule. If you have only "beginner" species species you usually have to earn respect the hard way by gradually proving your knowledge and so forth. For someone who really wants respect but really isn't that terribly knowledgeable or experienced it is easier just to rattle off a list of what they have and use that to try to get respect.

[Tony]

If that is not your intent then on what basis do you say a "pure" species is more valuable than a hybrid?

Because that is their natural state, the awe-inspiring product of millions of years of evolution. Pure species are more beautiful and valuable than hybrids in the same way that a pristine forest is more beautiful and valuable than a shopping mall.

[poison beauties]

yeah some frogs are worth more than others but the market decides that. And as far as a good beginners frog you are very much mistaken if you think pumilio and some thumb species are no harder tha tincs and auratus. I would like to see and average hobbyist take on a few reticulata and keep them thriving like tincs or auratus. Its not going to happen and I would know as I had the largest reticulata collection around until this past august.
Fantasy frogs were alot more than 30 bucks when they first appeared. I have plenty of memory on them and I can name off plenty of big names who sold them. If there is no real proof to the whole throw away frog than why are Auratus still the #1 imported dart? There are clearly enough of them to breed in order to sustain a supply that would stop the need for imports. Yet they get bought up and killed and the person moves on. Same with redeyes and others as well unfortunately.
Hybrids just add to the problems in our hobby. If we are going to advance as a hobby ot will only work through working to keep things as natural as possible and by tracking locales and lines in order to secure the breeding of the frogs for the future.

Michael

[SethD]

Because that is their natural state, the awe-inspiring product of millions of years of evolution. Pure species are more beautiful and valuable than hybrids in the same way that a pristine forest is more beautiful and valuable than a shopping mall.

So in short, it is a personal preference issue and because you personally like the forest you decree that it is better than a shopping mall. I think both have a place. If I need clothes I would rather get them at the mall than the forest, if I want to relax I would rather be in the forest than the mall. Since a pet is for personal enjoyment it doesn't make sense that because you like the forest metaphorically speaking that it is wrong for someone else to like the mall. That would be like me saying that because I personally don't like cheese no one else should eat it.

[SethD]

Hybrids just add to the problems in our hobby. If we are going to advance as a hobby ot will only work through working to keep things as natural as possible and by tracking locales and lines in order to secure the breeding of the frogs for the future.

You know, I personally have never produced hybrids or had much interest in them, however the more silliness I see on the topic the more I am inclined to do so just to freak out some poor paranoid souls who's millitancy I find uncalled for and illogical . How about some albino bufo woodhousii x leucistic bufo terrestris next year some time? How about another year after that I produce some with both mutant genes making things that much worse. A designer fertile hybrid. Bwwwaaahhhhh lol

[bshmerlie]

I prefer to start with wild caught stock whenever possible to ensure a genetically diverse founding population instead of inbreeding frogger X's frogs who probably brought inbred frogs from frogger Y who bought inbred frogs from frogger Z and so on. Red eyes are a species of least concern on the IUCN redlist, imports are not hurting their wild populations.

I'm sorry but when it comes to red eyes that's a cop out , because there are already so many of them already out there. What Brian and Understory are doing with the glass frogs I understand that. But taking frogs from the wild when they are so prevalent here is shameful and shouldn't be encouraged. They're not on the endangered list until they are. They shouldn't be allowed to import any frog species that is already so common in our hobby. As a community we should be breeding what we have to keep up with the demand. Not taking them from the wild. We slaughtered the Buffalo almost to extinction, we slaughtered sea otters to the brink, we over fish our oceans at what point do we learn? We know how to breed them stop taking them from the wild.

[Tony]

So in short, it is a personal preference issue...

I think that an appreciation of the natural world is a more convincing basis for an argument than the childlike tantrum of the "they are my animals and I can do whatever I want" approach you are taking.

[Tony]

I'm sorry but when it comes to red eyes that's a cop out , because there are already so many of them already out there. What Brian and Understory are doing with the glass frogs I understand that. But taking frogs from the wild when they are so prevalent here is shameful and shouldn't be encouraged. They're not on the endangered list until they are. They shouldn't be allowed to import any frog species that is already so common in our hobby. As a community we should be breeding what we have to keep up with the demand. Not taking them from the wild. We slaughtered the Buffalo almost to extinction, we slaughtered sea otters to the brink, we over fish our oceans at what point do we learn? We know how to breed them stop taking them from the wild.

Find me a red eye breeder who knows the lineage of their breeding stock and manages them appropriately and I will happily buy from them. To the best of my knowledge I am the only person attempting such a thing.

[poison beauties]

You know, I personally have never produced hybrids or had much interest in them, however the more silliness I see on the topic the more I am inclined to do so just to freak out some poor paranoid souls who's millitancy I find uncalled for and illogical . How about some albino bufo woodhousii x leucistic bufo terrestris next year some time? How about another year after that I produce some with both mutant genes making things that much worse. A designer fertile hybrid. Bwwwaaahhhhh lol

You sure do argue for them to not have any interest in them. You have he right to do what you want with the toads but keep in mind that follows you through the hobby. Dont think for a second we dont talk about who produces hybrids. Many froogers and myself would go broke feeding froglets before handing them out to known hybrid producers. Once you cross those frogs your rep is stuck to just that. A hybridizer.
You know DB like you said. Cross the toads and see how nice of a welcome you get over there or anywhere my friends and I are.

Michael

[SethD]

I think that an appreciation of the natural world is a more convincing basis for an argument than the childlike tantrum of the "they are my animals and I can do whatever I want" approach you are taking.

But the issue is you have no basis for your reasoning at all beyond your personal preference. You said your not talking about possible future reintroductions which leaves them as pets. Saying that in a pet natural is automatically better than unnatural makes about as much sense as saying that people should only keep wolves or other wild canines instead of dogs because wild canines are more natural. If you want a wild type fine, I take no issue with that, I like a lot of wild types myself. However I also don't have a problem with something different and to me it really defies logic as to why someone would object to what type of pet frog someone else had so strongly that they would actively campaign against and criticize another persons choice in a pet frog. Just seems like either snobbery or silliness to me.

[bshmerlie]

Find me a red eye breeder who knows the lineage of their breeding stock and manages them appropriately and I will happily buy from them. To the best of my knowledge I am the only person attempting such a thing.

Has there been some issues with deformities from inbred read eyes that I haven't heard about or is that just another excuse to buy a cool looking imported morph?

[Tony]

I don't consider my frogs to be pets. They do not have names, I do not play with them or attempt to cuddle with them at night, and they do not respond to me in any meaningful way. They are a little bit of the natural world that I am privileged to keep in my home. Anyone who thinks they have a pet frog needs to look up the word anthropomorphism.

[poison beauties]

Has there been some issues with deformities from inbred read eyes that I haven't heard about or is that just another excuse to buy a cool looking imported morph?

All red eyes are imported and there is nothing wrong with opening up the genetic diversity. If you dont know where your frogs track back to how do you know if the are related or not? Seems to me grabbing up fresh Legally imported lines in the way to go.

Michael

[Tony]

Has there been some issues with deformities from inbred read eyes that I haven't heard about or is that just another excuse to buy a cool looking imported morph?

Why risk such a thing happening when I can start with fresh stock? I have a number of imported wild type red eyes, if I was not concerned with proper genetic management I would have bought wholesale CB froglets for a third of the price and skipped the trouble of having to acclimate them.

[Froglove]

But the issue is you have no basis for your reasoning at all beyond your personal preference. You said your not talking about possible future reintroductions which leaves them as pets. Saying that in a pet natural is automatically better than unnatural makes about as much sense as saying that people should only keep wolves or other wild canines instead of dogs because wild canines are more natural. If you want a wild type fine, I take no issue with that, I like a lot of wild types myself. However I also don't have a problem with something different and to me it really defies logic as to why someone would object to what type of pet frog someone else had so strongly that they would actively campaign against and criticize another persons choice in a pet frog. Just seems like either snobbery or silliness to me.

And God said , Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth , which the waters brought forth abundantly , after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying , Be fruitful , and multiply , and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Your mixing of these frogs is not at all like dogs, cats or other animals that can reproduce across morphs. It encourages others to hybridize them and causes them to die off faster from this earth. Thus you are working against God's design for them on this earth. If you truly value God's Word above all else, you will rescind your position and stop foolish arguments which benefit no one.

I will say no more or have a foolish argument with you about this any further.

[bshmerlie]

I don't consider my frogs to be pets. They do not have names, I do not play with them or attempt to cuddle with them at night, and they do not respond to me in any meaningful way. They are a little bit of the natural world that I am privileged to keep in my home. Anyone who thinks they have a pet frog needs to look up the word anthropomorphism.

I feed them...I take care of them....they do have names...they are my pets. No I don't dress them up in sweaters like some people do to there dogs...but they are still pets. I don't buy 30 frogs at a time of one species like you do but I suppose if I did I would also start labeling them group A and group B for breeding purposes. They probably do the same thing at puppy farms. I'm sure those breeders at the puppy mills don't consider them pets either.

[Tony]

I don't buy 30 frogs at a time of one species like you do but I suppose if I did I would also start labeling them group A and group B for breeding purposes.

Yeah, how dare I track the bloodlines of a critically endangered frog with the intent of breeding large numbers of strong, healthy froglets. What a scumbag I am.

[SethD]

You sure do argue for them to not have any interest in them. You have he right to do what you want with the toads but keep in mind that follows you through the hobby.

Yes, I know it. I argue for them not so much out of personal interest in them(never actually bought or had a hybrid frog) but because I think a lot of froggers get so stuck in group thought that they don't think for themselves. This limits innovation in anything not approved by the group. I have seen a lot of smart people that could have done a lot for the hobby be shot down by group thought. Instead they became pretty much like everybody else. This group mentality constricts the hobby a great deal. Everyone wants to be well thought of, and nobody want to contradict conventional wisdom even if conventional wisdom is based on emotion instead of fact. Now I don't think conventional wisdom should be thrown out just because it is conventional, but it should be examined to see if it really makes sense or not. If that sort of thinking bothers people, that is unfortunate, but the hobby advances only slowly without it.

Dont think for a second we dont talk about who produces hybrids. Many froogers and myself would go broke feeding froglets before handing them out to known hybrid producers. Once you cross those frogs your rep is stuck to just that. A hybridizer.

Frankly my rep among your dendroboard buddies is no great concern of mine. I only have a few friends there anyway and I doubt they would have a fit since they tend to be reasonable people. Probably 80% of my frogs are wild caught too since I enjoy working with species either uncommonly or never bred before in the hobby so you or your buddies not selling me frogs wouldn't bug me much either. If someone is such a snob that they would refuse to do business with or would look down on someone who produced hybrids to make a point and labeled them as such they are probably not the sort of person I would get along with anyway in the long term. I encourage people to experiment and try things for themselves, within reason of course.

You know DB like you said. Cross the toads and see how nice of a welcome you get over there or anywhere my friends and I are.

Lol, one thing I don't much care for is threats. I was half joking but I can probably be pushed into actually doing it. I vist dendroboard because there are some good guys there, but there are also a lot of people that act like lemmings unfortunately.

[bshmerlie]

Yeah, how dare I track the bloodlines of a critically endangered frog with the intent of breeding large numbers of strong, healthy froglets. What a scumbag I am.

Actually my comment was just to point out why you probably wouldn't consider them pets. Nothing more.