Need Help AGAIN, WTF won't...poop.

[Kisa]

No offense to DonLisk or GingerLee's advice but you actually had KURT respond to your post and you "dissed" him. Kurt is "THE MAN" when it comes to tree frogs. He asked you a honest question and you accused him of being rude. Asking "what exactly is warm water to you"? is a very legitimate question and should not have been so quickly dismissed. Kurt has an incredible reputation here on this forum and has earned every ounce of it. Notice all the little "cubes" by his name and his 6000 posts...there's a reason for that. When Kurt or John responds to a post of mine I consider it an honor....and listen to their advice.

I "dissed" him? What I said was not intended as a "dis"m I in no way meant to offend him. and I do value his reputation AND his knowledge on this forum. What I asked for was advice, and clearly he did not give it to me.

The way he worded his post is what upset me, it was not the fact that he responded. I do not understand why he had to underline the word "exactly" in his post and act like I didn't know what I was doing. I value Kurt and John's opinions greatly, but I do not enjoy being treated like a child because I asked for help.

If he had, in fact, given me advice about the subject I posted this thread about, how to fix my frog's constipation, I would have followed it and thanked him for his reply and his help. But what he said was not helpful to me, so I wouldn't really call it advice.

If he didn't mean it to be rude, and he told me that I was mistaken in the way I took what he said I would've apologized right away, but since he has not responded I will take what he said as the way I read it until he tells me different.

Please don't think I've underestimated Kurt's knowledge. When Bruce was first sick I was instructed by members of this forum to PM Kurt, John, and Paul about it to see if they could help me. Kurt responded with instructions and I thanked him for his response. I know very well that he is an expert, I am not saying he isn't, I am just a little put off by the way he responded to this particular thread.

If he has worded his question a little less harshly, which isn't hard, I wouldn't have responded the way I did. How hard is it to ask "Do you think you're making the water a little too warm?" Instead of wording it the way he did? If anyone on this forum had said that to me, expert or not, I would have replied promptly the same way, in not a little ruder, in fact.

Sorry to Don and Ginger and anyone else who is reading this thread and had to sit through this, I in no way intended for this problem to become personal, I only wanted to defend myself from what I thought was rudeness.

[Kisa]

No offense to DonLisk or GingerLee's advice but you actually had KURT respond to your post and you "dissed" him. Kurt is "THE MAN" when it comes to tree frogs. He asked you a honest question and you accused him of being rude. Asking "what exactly is warm water to you"? is a very legitimate question and should not have been so quickly dismissed. Kurt has an incredible reputation here on this forum and has earned every ounce of it. Notice all the little "cubes" by his name and his 6000 posts...there's a reason for that. When Kurt or John responds to a post of mine I consider it an honor....and listen to their advice.

Oh, and by the way what you quoted there about "more experienced members of this forum" was in no way related to what Kurt said and what I said to Kurt. This quote was a joke in response to what Don said about growing up in the 60s and 70s. I know reading it there it may sound like I was referring to what Kurt said and being sarcastic, But I can assure you I am not. I'm sorry if you misunderstood this, I in no way was trying to offend anyone.

[DonLisk]

I like frogs. I like frogs. I like frogs. (Spins around three times)
Oh man, I was hoping when I opened my eyes I had more frogs.

Has Bruce pooped yet? Hoping so.

[Kisa]

I like frogs. I like frogs. I like frogs. (Spins around three times)
Oh man, I was hoping when I opened my eyes I had more frogs.

Has Bruce pooped yet? Hoping so.

Unfortunately he hasn't.

I had my friend catch crickets in tweezers and dropped the mineral oil onto them with the syringe I got from the vet. (It all happened kind of fast so I wasn't able to measure out 8 oz. before my friend had a cricket in his grasp.) I did two crickets, but I didn't want to give Bruce too much so I fed him the third one dry. This morning he's looking bloated, but is otherwise healthy, moving around normally and alert when I wake him up (I do a checkup every morning since I brought him back to the vet to make sure he doesn't get anymore lesions and I also check his eyes to see if the cloudiness is any better or worse) so other than the bloat it's fine.

I think I'm going to wait til tomorrow night when I feed him again and give him a bigger dose if I don't see anything by then. I just hope his tummy isn't hurting.

[wesleybrouwer]

I don't know if i posted the luke warm water bathing around here,
but i also recommend this over purging you're frog.

I learned this trick to get poo for microscopic research on worms or parasites.
If you put the frog into a luke warm bath and let it soak for about 5 mins.
9 out of 10 times they will grant you some material to check upon.
This has always worked out great.

If anything is constipated down there, luke water will help, guaranteed.
It will even help birds or reptiles who have egg binding.

When your'e frog don't like being in the water, just put on a lid so he can't escape,
after all it is for it's own well being. Just make sure the water level is not to high,
so you prevent it from drowning.

If you laxate your'e frog, do remember that this also is a way of dehydration,
this might also be a blow to it's general health.
If you go with the oil, please be carefull not to dehydrate it to much.
A dehydrated frog must be bathed in a salin solution.
The easiest way to get this, is making it yourself, most user-ready solutions have a wrong composition since it is made for humans.

You can make the solution by mixing 1 Liter of water with 5 grams of salt,
some people use 6,5 gram of salt.
This gives you a 5% or 6,5% salin solution.
My regular vet always recommend me the 5% solution since she told me this matches the frogs internal values best.

So i must say, i'll go with Kurt

[Kisa]

I don't know if i posted the luke warm water bathing around here,
but i also recommend this over purging you're frog.

I learned this trick to get poo for microscopic research on worms or parasites.
If you put the frog into a luke warm bath and let it soak for about 5 mins.
9 out of 10 times they will grant you some material to check upon.
This has always worked out great.

If anything is constipated down there, luke water will help, guaranteed.
It will even help birds or reptiles who have egg binding.

When your'e frog don't like being in the water, just put on a lid so he can't escape,
after all it is for it's own well being. Just make sure the water level is not to high,
so you prevent it from drowning.

If you laxate your'e frog, do remember that this also is a way of dehydration,
this might also be a blow to it's general health.
If you go with the oil, please be carefull not to dehydrate it to much.
A dehydrated frog must be bathed in a salin solution.
The easiest way to get this, is making it yourself, most user-ready solutions have a wrong composition since it is made for humans.

You can make the solution by mixing 1 Liter of water with 5 grams of salt,
some people use 6,5 gram of salt.
This gives you a 5% or 6,5% salin solution.
My regular vet always recommend me the 5% solution since she told me this matches the frogs internal values best.

So i must say, i'll go with Kurt

Thank you so much for the detailed reply and instructions, I will follow these is I do not see any progress (By that I mean poop of course...>>) by tomorrow evening.

I used very little oil when feeding him, so I do not think he is in any danger of dehydration, if I do see any symptoms of that I will stop using the oil right away and soak him in the the solution you provided.

I did soak him in luke warm water for what I feel was probably between 3 and 5 minutes and I saw no improvement, which is why I went for the oil instead. But I do believe that soaking him in luke warm water is safer for his overall health and well being, so I will try the soak again. He just gets so flustered when I put him in any degree of water, he used to try and climb out when I had to soak him for the lesions on his leg, and that water was the same temperature as the water I keep in his viv.

Thank you again for your response, and again what I said to Kurt was not meant in a blatantly disrespectful way. I value his opinion, but if he had posted something like this instead of what he did say, I would have responded in much the same way I am responding to you.

I will post an update if I see any progress on Bruce's condition.

Thanks.

[DonLisk]

What plants are in his tank and does he climb into them at times?
Mine poop down into the Bromalaids and Aloe plants all the time and you'd only see it if it builds up.

[Kisa]

What plants are in his tank and does he climb into them at times?
Mine poop down into the Bromalaids and Aloe plants all the time and you'd only see it if it builds up.

Actually there isn't anything he can climb in his tank right now. Since he was sick I took all of his accessories out (aside from his water bowl and log hiding spot) and put paper towels down as substrate to make sure that his viv was clear of any harmful bacteria or fungus. I bought him a brand new viv (That's bigger and fancier) but I am waiting on the final thing to be shipped before i can put it together, so I've just left him in his sick tank for now. (Changing the water and paper towels every other day of course). The paper towels also help me to tell if he's pooped yet, cuz they're obviously easy to see on a white background. XD;

I'm gonna try soaking him tonight, there's still nothing. Maybe I didn't get enough oil on the crickets? If not tomorrow night I'll follow your dosing instructions and cross my fingers. I would've already followed them but my friends got a little ahead of themselves when they were helping me.

I'll let you guys know if anything comes from the soak.

[Kurt]

OK Let me explain what I meant by exactly. I was asking for the exact temperature or at least an approximation. The reason being is people have different definitions of what they call warm water. Example; when I soak in a hot tub that is a temperature of 103 F, I consider that to be warm and cozy (and you will have a tough time trying to get me out of it ). However that temperature will kill your frog.

[Leefrogs]

So fir further refrence can we be a little more percise, besides anything below 103. So, what, WTF. 70, 75, less!?!?!

[Kisa]

Kurt, I knew what you meant by your question, it was the wording and the tone of the message that confused me. But anyway, that's settled now.

Usually the water I put him in is just above room temperature, that is, warm to the touch of my hand but not so warm that you can tell the difference right away. I wait until the water is at that temp where it's hard to tell if it's even warm at all, so as not to harm him. Unfortunately I don't have a thermometer on hand that I could measure the temperature with but I don't think my water is too hot.

Update:

I soaked Bruce last night and nothing happened! I put him in a luke warm (little warmer than room temperature) water for 8 minutes (went a little over the five that was suggested just to be sure he got a nice long soak) and still no poop. :/

I'm going to try a bigger dose of mineral oil tonight with his food, and only feed him one large cricket (all oiled up) and a very small cricket. He's starting to look pretty bloated, we need to clear this blockage soon before he gets really hurt.

If nothing happens tomorrow morning after a soak AND mineral oil treatment, I'm going to call the vet. I really don't want to have to take him back there (I'm almost out of savings and I was under the impression that he was totally healthy, except for his eyes) but if he is impacted and there are serious risks to his health involved, I'm not going to sit around and let him get hurt or die.

I'll post tonight after the feeding/soaking.

Thanks for reading/posting everyone, your suggestions have been a big help.

I hope after this I never have to post another "sick frog" thread again! D:

[DonLisk]

Well, we all hope poor Bruce poops for you :-) What a funny thing to say but really I know we all do.

My Whites poop usually while hanging off a water dish or leaf and then sometimes in the water. I don't see them go while standing on the substrate all that often.

[lnaminneci]

Awwww ...I hope Bruce has a "movement" for you soon, and will be alright. Keep us posted.

And a soak in a "warm" hot tub actually sounds very nice...... I would call that warm water as well.


~Lesley

[clownonfire]

It's quite remarquable how invested you are with Bruce. Hoping it all turns in your favor. Keep us posted, Kisa.

[Kisa]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your support.

No poop!

I took a cricket, basically drowned it in oil and fed it to him, along with one other dry and no poop! My friends all say he doesn't look bloated but I feel like he is! I took some pictures of him to show you guys, I'm really not all too sure what bloating looks like, so if you guys could take a look at them and let me know your opinions that would be great.

So if he doesn't have a movement by tomorrow it will have been two weeks since he's pooped, I imagine he's getting pretty backed up and full of waste. I tried the warm soak and the oil, but I don't think either one of those is doing the job, so if you guys don't have anymore suggestions I'll have to take him to the vet again soon to make sure he's not impacted.

I don't want him to die after all this because he was constipated! I've spent so much time and money on him I'm not going to let this happen!

If you guys have anymore suggestions that I could try I would be very grateful, but so far it looks like I'll have to take him back to the doctor.

Thanks for all your help guys, I appreciate you all trying to help me.

Oh, and I almost forgot, there is some good news I wanna share.

I was spraying Bruce down with the squirt bottle last night and I noticed him making a strange movement with his stomach, at first I thought this was the poop that I had been waiting for but all of a sudden, his throat puffed out and he started croaking! I was so excited to finally hear him make some noise, and really happy that he turned out to be a boy after all! He croaked pretty loudly about five or six times and then went quiet and wouldn't do it again.

I'm taking this as a good sign, no matter what people tell me. I've read several times that croaking is a sign that a frog is not stressed and is comfortable in his surroundings. I am so happy to finally see that he isn't scared anymore, and is finally settling in to his new home!

Now all we have to do is get him to make #2! D<

Here are those pictures:

http://s1194.photobucket.com/albums/...0123001203.jpg
There he is sleeping with his eyes closed, but sitting up like he's awake. Dork. >>

http://s1194.photobucket.com/albums/...0123001236.jpg
And here he is after I woke him up with the noise from the camera, lookin around.

I still maintain that he is the cutest thing I have ever seen. ^ ^

[DonLisk]

Yes, Croaking is a god sign. He does look heavy but not sure if you call it bloated or just putting on the weight.

[Leefrogs]

that's good. Kernit ate some moss, that's why I needed to know water temp. If he don't poop soon..... And i agree, they are the most adorable things!!

[clownonfire]

After seeing the pics, Kisa, it reminded me of a fire-bellied toad I had younger that had dropsy...

[Kisa]

Hopefully Kermit doesn't come along with the same problems as Bruce...I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. This is a pretty harrowing experience.

He better not have dropsy! D: But isn't that indicated by swelling of the abdomen and limbs? If it IS Dropsy I think it's too early to tell...

I heard from some friends that antibiotics sometimes cause constipation in humans, so maybe it could be the same for animals as well? I'm going to call the vet tomorrow, I'm not even sure if they're open today, and ask my vet what she thinks I should do. I don't want to have to bring him in again, but if Dropsy is a theory, than I'm going to take him in right away.

The croaking makes me think that this is just induced by the antibiotics, all the traveling, and maybe his quick weight loss (not because of his illness but because of the diet I put him on), but I'll call the vet and update you guys.

[Kisa]

After posting I decided I would try one last time and put Bruce into a warm soak. I left him in there a little longer this time, about 20 minutes, just to be absolutely sure he was in the water long enough. I added just a tiny pinch of salt and a few drops of that blue stuff to the water to see if those would help (now I'm thinking the blue stuff is Melafix, I was doing some research and stumbled across it online and it looks similar). I used a larger amount of water this time to make sure Bruce wasn't exposed to too much of either ingredient.

When I pulled him out he had turned the dark brown color he was when I first got him (lately he's been looking a lot greener, even if it is pale with a brownish tint) and I felt horrible, but new it had to be done. I washed him with clean cool water before putting him back in his viv and he went right to sleep.

I hope I didn't stress him out too much, but I am starting to worry severely about all this and will definitely be calling the vet tomorrow. I took him out of the water about 20 minutes ago and so far he has left me no presents so I don't even know if soaking him will help at all...

I'll update you guys is there are any changes.