Hello from Atlanta GA

[poison beauties]

I get it, it's not that your trying to "rule" the rest of the hobby, it is just that the rest of the hobby is so stupid and unlearned that your doing this all for our good. We should be so ashamed for disagreeing with the the brilliant, hard working dart froggers who have come to giude us out of darkness into enlightenment. Forgive us.

I hate to break it to you but the dart frog hobbys frogs are not going to be used for reintroductions either unless "maybe" and this is a big maybe, the species in question is totally extict in the wild. It is a dream, but a highly unrealistic one.

I have been following the hobby since the early 90's. It has changed sure, going wrong tends to be a matter of perspective. If your talking about high priced morphs and such, eventually it will balance out, it always does.

You know the attitude and level of arrogance you and a lot of dart froggers like you have almost makes me hope your project flops. However I would like to see more such species established so I wish you success even though success would most likely just add another level of silly arrogance to your attitude.

No I do not think the rest of the hobby is stupid, just a few of them and I can back it up with facts. Its not just Dart Frogger that try. Our end of the hobby just seems to be more focused on advancing. Enlightenment is on the way.

And as for the reinto bit you threw out, Do you really think all these species wont be gone in time? Look at the Madagascan species, look at the SA species. Standard Lamasi are almost wiped out in the wild, Annae almost went down and their are many others and for many reasons. You are sadly mistaken if you think anything on a large scale can be done without us. Its us the hobbyists that do our part and head south to help out where we can. The only ones that will hurt in time are the importers. Perhalps they should have focused on captive breeding rather than bringing in everything they could to make a buck and we may not have the issues. If more work was done to promote better aptive breeding practices and distribution of these critters imports would not be needed now.

Ive been a part of the herp hobby since the early 90's as well and I can tell you that greed and lack of better judgement has held us back. If these guys that brought all this stuff in would have worked a bit harder to keep track of exactly where it came from and whats unrelated to what we would probably be to the point imports would not be needed for stuff thats already here.,

High prices and morphs are nothing as its the buyers who control the market. The extra attention put towards selective breeding is a bit disturbing but almost everyone has been a part of it at times including me. All we can do is learn.

As for my attitude and level of arrogance all I can say s I have the best interest for our hobby and will step on toes yes but its only out of the dedication to our hobby as Im very much known for helping out others when they need it. I can asure you no matter how much you wish my project would fail, It wont. I heard the same stuff when I took on reticulata in groups and I came out on top and Im sure I nded up with the largest collection of them in the hobby. It will go the same with the rain frogs and like the retics I will hand them out to ensure they get a foothold and stick around.

Dendroboard Dart froggers, they are so smart, witty and lovable.

Im not a DB Dart Frogger. I chime in to help others and supply the hobby with micro fauna. I have grown tired of the offtopic stuff over there. I belong to a dart board that actually takes a stance against your BS hybrid support and breeding. Your welcome to come over there and say your peace.

I am only a semi-regular on dendroboard and since I personally pretty much got out of darts a number of years ago I go there mostly for what talk there is on other portions of the hobby as well as to talk to a few friends. I was on dendroboard for a bit when it first started several years ago, got tired of it and left, then came back this spring when the melanophryniscus started coming in and there was a lot of interest expressed in that over there. Otherwise my visits have been fairly sporadic over the years. Further I don't really have "a lot of hate towards dart froggers" I have friends in that community and there are still reasonable people over there. I don't have anything against dart froggers except what so many of them have become these days. Things change and while years ago most people in the dart frogger community were friendly and helpful now a large portion of them are arrogant, nasty, and think their collections and hobby are somehow going to "save the frogs" while also thinking anyone who disagrees with their point of view is an idiot. When I find a dart frogger that doesn't fit that increasingly common mold I have no problem with them at all and we usually get along fine.

Well if you were working with Darts years ago you would know they were more arrogant, nasty and were nothing in the way of being helpfull to new hobbyists, I know this as I joined that part of the hobby in 1999 and without the boards I had to do alot of work to get it right. You have no clue how many dart frog breeders wanted to keep their techniques secret then. How well off would you be without the boards? Id still be flourishing, I have friends all over and can get what I need without the boards. I only came back to help others.

Normal corn snakes are available for those who want them, it is not that they have been lost, it is just that a lot of people like color morphs. If you are a "natural snake" fan there are still a enormous number of possibilities and your options have not diminished. It is just that other things are more popular. That is true of all species with a lot of morphs on the market. The morphs didn't destroy the natural part of the hobby, they just added to it. If it isn't an issue of just wanting everyone in the hobby to like only "natural" animals because that is what you personally like show me examples in the reptile or amphibian hobby where color mutations or what have you made "natural" animals wild colorations unavailable. They didn't do that, what they did was bring a lot of new people into the hobby and create new fans for that particular type of animal. To use your example, people kept corn snakes before all the mutations started, but the number of keepers exploded once more and more morphs became available. I wonder if some of the anti-morph anti-hybrid-anything sentiment in some people is more due to a concern that a lot of new people with view not exactly like theirs could enter the hobby. I guess it depends on your point of view if new people in the hobby is a good or bad thing.

Im not concerned with the new comers to the hobby as far as your anti hybrid sentiment go's. I have more than enough knowledge to help them out and show them another point of view. If you think Selective Breeding and Hybridization are going to win out over time your wrong. Many species are disapearing and many more are in need. People will see the importance of keeping a natural piece of nature when nature no longer supplies them.
As far as the last two pages go Im seeing nothing but a bunch of sissy fighting. You cant come up with one benefit to hybridization or selective breeding. So why support it?

Michael

[Nelson]

Uh guys, after reading all the posts may i ask:

Scientifically speaking why is it wrong to create hybrid frogs?

And please don't say that's because in the wild they don't exist since someone told that hybrid herps are accepted and they don't exist in the wild too

[SethD]

As for my attitude and level of arrogance all I can say s I have the best interest for our hobby and will step on toes yes but its only out of the dedication to our hobby as Im very much known for helping out others when they need it. I can asure you no matter how much you wish my project would fail, It wont. I heard the same stuff when I took on reticulata in groups and I came out on top and Im sure I nded up with the largest collection of them in the hobby. It will go the same with the rain frogs and like the retics I will hand them out to ensure they get a foothold and stick around.

Haa there is nothing like overconfidence in action. Dart frogs are a bit different than explosive breeders. Like I said originally though I wish you success even though I do have my doubts and am so far not exactly impressed with you personally. I have to wonder a bit just how capable someone is that is so overconfident. I find that the most capable people are rarely the ones dripping with overconfidence in their own abilities, even when it might be justified. However if your so supremely confident can you give an estimate of when your going to have froglets available? Hopefully that isn't to much to ask, that way I can be glad for you if you make your ETA or at least come close, or have a private little chuckle if you never succeed at all or miss the mark by more than a year or so. That way I can mentally mark you down as either a bragger that can at least sometimes live up to his boasting yet another over confident dart frogger who talks a good game but can't come even close to matching his boasting with non-dart species. If your that confident and have come to enlighten and correct everyone else who "doesn't know as much" as you do I would think that would be the least you can do.

Im not a DB Dart Frogger. I chime in to help others and supply the hobby with micro fauna. I have grown tired of the offtopic stuff over there. I belong to a dart board that actually takes a stance against your BS hybrid support and breeding. Your welcome to come over there and say your peace.

why would I want to? I have no quarrel to pick with people who see things differently but leave the rest of the hobby alone, I only bother to argue when they come to other parts of the hobby with the goal of trashing people that don't agree with them.

Well if you were working with Darts years ago you would know they were more arrogant, nasty and were nothing in the way of being helpfull to new hobbyists, I know this as I joined that part of the hobby in 1999 and without the boards I had to do alot of work to get it right. You have no clue how many dart frog breeders wanted to keep their techniques secret then.

Lol, yes I remember those days, but it certainly don't remember the secretiveness you describe, I remember a great deal of exchange of information and ideas and by and large a friendly attitude. Certainly not the level of militancy and overconfidence so many show today. Maybe it was just your circle of contacts or maybe if you came across the same way then that you do now you just rubbed people the wrong way and they didn't feel like sharing much with you.

How well off would you be without the boards? Id still be flourishing, I have friends all over and can get what I need without the boards. I only came back to help others.

Lol, I don't really feel the need to answer that. Those who know me know the answer to that, and I don't really care that much what others may think one way or another. It is pretty silly to get into an "I know more than you do" or an "I bred this and that and you haven't" argument. I won't be drawn into that as such is nothing but an ego match and ego matches make both sides look like immature children. Suffice it to say I have had fun in the hobby for a while.

[Tony]

It is pretty silly to get into an "I know more than you do" or an "I bred this and that and you haven't" argument. I won't be drawn into that as such is nothing but an ego match and ego matches make both sides look like immature children. Suffice it to say I have had fun in the hobby for a while.

Funny that you take this attitude now, you certainly didn't think that yesterday when you were trying to make it look like I bought my first tree frog ever 6 months ago.

[John]

Last warning folks, make this a mature discussion, with some fact-based opinions, or so help me, I'll turn the car around...

[Nelson]

or so help me, I'll turn the car around...

lol

can someone answer my question please???

[SethD]

Funny that you take this attitude now, you certainly didn't think that yesterday when you were trying to make it look like I bought my first tree frog ever 6 months ago.

I don't know why that would bother you, all I did was point out what you yourself have said in other forums and I even went to pains to say that I didn't know how capable you may or may not be or how knowledgeable. If you recall I only even said that much when you seemed to be trying to distance yourself from the dart frog portion of the hobby as if that wasn't where you got your views. It is to bad you anti-hybrid-anything people seem to have great difficulty in relaxing and having a reasonable discussion. It seems everything coming from your side is either laying it on thick and patting yourselves on the back, or insulting and name calling, or claiming that other people are attacking you. That is funny considering we don't go to dart frog boards with an abrasive attitude and declaring we don't care who we step on because our view are for the greater good and that everyone who is a "serious" hobbyist should see things our way and if not they are a joke. There is no reason why you guys could not have been welcomed here and even expressed your disapproval of hybridization in a proper manner, nobody was out to get you initially. You simply created a mess by rushing in like a bull in a china shop, calling names, and pretty much stating anyone who did not agree with you was an idiot. It is unfortunate that you and the other new dendroboard people felt the need to do that. It is a lousy way to introduce yourself in a new forum. I am pretty sure by presenting your agenda in such a nasty and aggressive manner you did nothing but unnecessarily create foes of fellow hobbyists that would be more naturally allies.

[Tony]

Why do you keep dodging the relevant questions? Let's hear one good thing hybridizing accomplishes for the hobby and our frogs.

[SethD]

Why do you keep dodging the relevant questions? Let's hear one good thing hybridizing accomplishes for the hobby and our frogs.

Thought I would touch on this a bit, new morphs and hybrids etc. have historically increased the number of people and interest in other portions of the hobby. How many people were into leopard geckos lets say when only normal looking ones were available? Some, but the numbers expanded a lot after more and more morphs and options became available. Some think that is good and some think that is bad I guess, but I personally think it is good. Now that I have answered your question can you give some kind of proof of why hybridization is bad other than the fact that you personally don't like it and fear it will prevent hobbyists captive CB frogs from being re-introduced back into the wild?(something that has zero precedent to my knowledge and is a very long odds shot anyway)

[poison beauties]

I really wasn't expecting to come back into this argument because....well...its stupid. But Mike, if you go back to the first page of this thread...you actually started it. You came to this forum out of deception...simply to start an argument. Seth's first statement was that if you're looking for an argument try DB. That deception, simply to start an argument shows your character. Everyone greeted you and welcomed you to the forum and you and Tony had to really dig to get the argument going. Even when people were making jokes and trying to stay lighthearted about it. If you wanted to start a discussion about the hybrid issue be professional about it next time instead of what has occurred here.

Like I just said Im trying to drop the BS from it. I did not come here out of deception and Im well known to help all who I can in this hobby and yes I throw my 2 cents in as well and make sure that the other side of the issue is presented for all to read and decide from.

Thought I would touch on this a bit, new morphs and hybrids etc. have historically increased the number of people and interest in other portions of the hobby. How many people were into leopard geckos lets say when only normal looking ones were available? Some, but the numbers expanded a lot after more and more morphs and options became available. Some think that is good and some think that is bad I guess, but I personally think it is good. Now that I have answered your question can you give some kind of proof of why hybridization is bad other than the fact that you personally don't like it and fear it will prevent hobbyists captive CB frogs from being re-introduced back into the wild?(something that has zero precedent to my knowledge and is a very long odds shot anyway)

New morphs and selctive breeding does not benefit the hobby due to bringing more people into it. Thats like saying its better to have a thousand herps than a hundred. Doesnt the quality and content matter?

As far as hybrids being bad go they take away from the natural representation and that among other things cause issues like people mistakingly or purposely trying to name new species or locales. What about the fact that hybrids promote fads and greed in the hobby? Then what> we have many other producing them and they flood the market. All over a frog that can never hold its value.

Michael

[bshmerlie]

Why do you keep dodging the relevant questions? Let's hear one good thing hybridizing accomplishes for the hobby and our frogs.

Colors...I admit it....I like different colors. I can't mix species but I can have different colors. Why do you think people have mixed tanks? They don't want to see all the same animal all the time. Not everyone can afford a frog room with 50 different tanks. If all my red eyes were the same color I wouldn't be able to name them. and someday when someone breeds a pretty blue red eye I will be the first in line to buy it. Its called fun. Most of the people on this forum are hobbiest and they are in it because they think frogs are cool and FUN to own. We're not looking to reintroduce our blue red eyed color morph frogs to the wild. There is a place for the purity that your talking about but there is also a place for the hobbiest who wants to purchase a hybrid. They're not in it professionally they're in it just to have a pet. Yes Tony to some of us that "name" them they are our pets. Hybrids or color Morphs its the same reason.....and its called FUN. Not everyone here looks at their frogs as a business or an attempt to save the planet. My biggest gripe is that any frogs are removed from the wild at all for the hobbiest. For example, I think it should be something similar to what Understory is doing with the Lemurs. Take a few, breed them, then sell those offspring to the hobbiest breeders and then those breeders would have to be able to sustain the regular demand.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I think that the only real course of action here is for all of us "regulars" to just leave these two alone (Tony & poison beauties). It is just a matter or time before they get into an argument with each other over who is smarter then the other and they go back home to Dendroboard. This was a rather peaceful, open minded community until these two experts came along and insulted a large portion of the board with their rude, brash, insulting, "my way or the highway" approach. They have both proved that their is no reasoning with them and they are looking for exactly what we are giving them by arguing. Some people just like to hear themselves talk and these two are prime examples of that. On the other hand, for me, all of this has opened my eyes to the inner politics of this forum and it's merit system. I guess politics are everywhere.

[poison beauties]

I don't know why that would bother you, all I did was point out what you yourself have said in other forums and I even went to pains to say that I didn't know how capable you may or may not be or how knowledgeable. If you recall I only even said that much when you seemed to be trying to distance yourself from the dart frog portion of the hobby as if that wasn't where you got your views. It is to bad you anti-hybrid-anything people seem to have great difficulty in relaxing and having a reasonable discussion. It seems everything coming from your side is either laying it on thick and patting yourselves on the back, or insulting and name calling, or claiming that other people are attacking you. That is funny considering we don't go to dart frog boards with an abrasive attitude and declaring we don't care who we step on because our view are for the greater good and that everyone who is a "serious" hobbyist should see things our way and if not they are a joke. There is no reason why you guys could not have been welcomed here and even expressed your disapproval of hybridization in a proper manner, nobody was out to get you initially. You simply created a mess by rushing in like a bull in a china shop, calling names, and pretty much stating anyone who did not agree with you was an idiot. It is unfortunate that you and the other new dendroboard people felt the need to do that. It is a lousy way to introduce yourself in a new forum. I am pretty sure by presenting your agenda in such a nasty and aggressive manner you did nothing but unnecessarily create foes of fellow hobbyists that would be more naturally allies.

Is it me or are you trying to take the high ground by respectfully relaying your opinion and at the same time being disrespectfull to others? Doesnt go well with all the Religous talk I see from you on DB. I know quite a few hobbyists on this board and if making a great first impression is the most important thing oh well. I prefer to use my knowledge to help others and if I hurt a few fealings Im sorry but you came onto my thread this time to preach against my beliefs.
Im really not looking to argue this BS you bring. Your trying to turn it into a bullying issue when its not. Your trying to make it look like your being the victim here when your not. I could care less if you post on this thread against my beliefs unlike a few that got pissy on the other thread but lets try to keep it related to the topic. Not ourselves....

Michael

[poison beauties]

Haa there is nothing like overconfidence in action. Dart frogs are a bit different than explosive breeders. Like I said originally though I wish you success even though I do have my doubts and am so far not exactly impressed with you personally. I have to wonder a bit just how capable someone is that is so overconfident. I find that the most capable people are rarely the ones dripping with overconfidence in their own abilities, even when it might be justified. However if your so supremely confident can you give an estimate of when your going to have froglets available? Hopefully that isn't to much to ask, that way I can be glad for you if you make your ETA or at least come close, or have a private little chuckle if you never succeed at all or miss the mark by more than a year or so. That way I can mentally mark you down as either a bragger that can at least sometimes live up to his boasting yet another over confident dart frogger who talks a good game but can't come even close to matching his boasting with non-dart species. If your that confident and have come to enlighten and correct everyone else who "doesn't know as much" as you do I would think that would be the least you can do.

We both know an ETA is not possible but I will be more than happy to document my entire project from viv build to the frogs and care as Im just getting it going. Im always up to share info. Im not even close to being over confident with this project. These frogs need to be successfully captive bred here so I dont really see a fault in saying so. I guess its going to be a wait and see for you huh.

why would I want to? I have no quarrel to pick with people who see things differently but leave the rest of the hobby alone, I only bother to argue when they come to other parts of the hobby with the goal of trashing people that don't agree with them.

I trashed noone in fact Tony and I are the ones who brought the reasoning to this while all you do is ***** ***** ***** like your usual self. I have no problem doing so though and once again if you knew me you would know this.

Lol, yes I remember those days, but it certainly don't remember the secretiveness you describe, I remember a great deal of exchange of information and ideas and by and large a friendly attitude. Certainly not the level of militancy and overconfidence so many show today. Maybe it was just your circle of contacts or maybe if you came across the same way then that you do now you just rubbed people the wrong way and they didn't feel like sharing much with you.

Very funny you remember those day as your only 24 now. I have known many froggers over the years big named breeders and all and if you think info gathering in this hobby was easy and all was shared you really are stupid my friend. Do you really think all breeding and husbandry secrets are even shared now? If you say yes you would be wrong again, There is and was always a secretivness to some info as many breeders back then did not really want the competition from other breeders. I bet you think you could just click online back then and get everything you needed and buy yourself a nice young pair of Thumbnails. Did you even see the sharing of all info when DB started up in 2004? No you did not.

Lol, I don't really feel the need to answer that. Those who know me know the answer to that, and I don't really care that much what others may think one way or another. It is pretty silly to get into an "I know more than you do" or an "I bred this and that and you haven't" argument. I won't be drawn into that as such is nothing but an ego match and ego matches make both sides look like immature children. Suffice it to say I have had fun in the hobby for a while.

Im not even worried about who knows more and at the present moment Im pretty sure I know more of your fellow TX froggers than you do. Do you think I would just show up on a board ranting? Please I have my name established in our hobby and I have more than enough references on my feeders, plants and frogs I have produced. Remeber I started this thread. You came into it and started the Pissing Match. Its funny how everyone got their little panties in a bunch over Tony posting his opinion in that thread yet you guys do the same here. Why cant we be left alone to preach anti hybridization? If you think your just standing up for the rest of your side of the hobby your not doing very well. You still cant tell me what benefits Hybrids bring to the hobby and why the producers of the should even be respected. Creating a fad for extra cash does not benefit the hobby and a few less mixed frogs would not keep the hobbyists from joining.
By the way their is a TX frogger meet coming up. Im planning to make my way over their to see a few friends and deliver some frogs. Your more than welcome to come and explain your beliefs in person.

Michael

[SethD]

Very funny you remember those day as your only 24 now.

And your apparently twenty nine, so? I have been keeping reptiles since I was 4 years old and basically grew up in the hobby. Some of my earliest memories are reptile and amphibian related. I have been interested in in the hobby as long as I can remember, no doubt at least partially due to an older brother that was into the hobby from when I was very little up until I was around 11-12 . I used to study the price lists my older brother got from glades herp back when bill love still ran it and wish I had enough money to buy some of those animals like my brother did. We would sit up in our bunk beds reading reptile/amphibian books plotting about what we would get as well as pouring over price lists. As I got older I slowly started to get enough money here and there to buy some animals instead of just keeping what I could catch. I am sure many long time hobbyist, including yourself possibly, can relate. What does that mean? Not much, it certainly doesn't make me a genius or somehow superior to someone else that didn't grow up that way, but yes I do remember the reptile trade in the 90's pretty well.

Unfortunately most of your posts have moved into the realm of just plain silliness and can't really be responded to very fully without either laughing at you or responding in a equally ridiculous fashion. Joking around with people insulting everyone is funny to a point but I do tire of it eventually, it just gets boring. If you have something reasonable to say and can refrain from insulting everyone that disagrees with you fine, I am still quite capable of responding to logic if you care to present any. If not though I no longer see a reason to respond as I have both already presented my points and had a chuckle over your attitude.

[poison beauties]

And your apparently twenty nine, so? I have been keeping reptiles since I was 4 years old and basically grew up in the hobby. Some of my earliest memories are reptile and amphibian related. I have been interested in in the hobby as long as I can remember, no doubt at least partially due to an older brother that was into the hobby from when I was very little up until I was around 11-12 . I used to study the price lists my older brother got from glades herp back when bill love still ran it and wish I had enough money to buy some of those animals like my brother did. We would sit up in our bunk beds reading reptile/amphibian books plotting about what we would get as well as pouring over price lists. As I got older I slowly started to get enough money here and there to buy some animals instead of just keeping what I could catch. I am sure many long time hobbyist, including yourself possibly, can relate. What does that mean? Not much, it certainly doesn't make me a genius or somehow superior to someone else that didn't grow up that way, but yes I do remember the reptile trade in the 90's pretty well.

Unfortunately most of your posts have moved into the realm of just plain silliness and can't really be responded to very fully without either laughing at you or responding in a equally ridiculous fashion. Joking around with people insulting everyone is funny to a point but I do tire of it eventually, it just gets boring. If you have something reasonable to say and can refrain from insulting everyone that disagrees with you fine, I am still quite capable of responding to logic if you care to present any. If not though I no longer see a reason to respond as I have both already presented my points and had a chuckle over your attitude.

Nice to know you grew up around herps. I did too but it does not mean anything. Anyone can own a few herps and claim they have been around twenty years. Like i said lets keep this on topic. Im not looking to keep your rediculously thought out replies coming. Your attitude towards this does more than make me chuckle. You actually think your words are golden. You have not contributed anything to our hobby that sets you above anyone else and if you have noone knows about it.

If you have a thought on the subject of what make hybrids beneficial to our hobby I will hear you out. Until then your replies are just a joke. You seriously are doing nothing but increasing the chaos in this thread. Lets take the personal issues out of it.

Michael

[Kurt]

Michael,
All Seth is doing is play the Devils's Advocate. He is trying to show you that you see things one way while others see it another way. I don't think is really picking a side. I agree with you on the subject at hand, but while at the same time I can't tell them they are an idiot for wanting or creating hybrids. I can just state my position and if they don't like it, I just walk away.

[bshmerlie]

Remeber I started this thread. You came into it and started the Pissing Match.

Michael

I really wasn't expecting to come back into this argument because....well...its stupid. But Mike, if you go back to the first page of this thread...you actually started it. You came to this forum out of deception...simply to start an argument. Seth's first statement was that if you're looking for an argument try DB. That deception, simply to start an argument shows your character. Everyone greeted you and welcomed you to the forum and you and Tony had to really dig to get the argument going. Even when people were making jokes and trying to stay lighthearted about it. If you wanted to start a discussion about the hybrid issue be professional about it next time instead of what has occurred here.