Hello from Atlanta GA

[John]

I could have sworn we had an age requirement of 13 or older on this site. Looks like it's not working.

[SethD]

I could have sworn we had an age requirement of 13 or older on this site. Looks like it's not working.

Don't you appreciated art John? Everyone, group laugh show the the mods/admins it isn't to serious. If someone can't do that much they need to stop taking themselves so seriously, I chuckled at the napoleon pic.

[Kurt]

I guess I missed the joke. No idea why Napoleon is funny.

[poison beauties]

Good luck in your efforts Michael. What species are you going to attempt?

Right now Im starting with Scaphiophryne gottlebei or red rain frogs and will likely take on a few others over winter. I plan to post up my projects and show any success as I have new ideas on how to tackly successfull breeding and tad raising.

Oh man...I was hoping this would die. We are all going to have to agree to disagree. They are just different points of view. No one on either side is going to be able to convince the other. This conversation is futile.

This is just one of those topics. We may never agree but keeping it out in the open is something we can do to educate the new hobbyists which ever way they choose to go.

Let me just say a few things. First, I do appreciate having information available related to the many reasons not to crossbreed darts, even different morphs. I would never have known it was a problem years ago when I first became interested in the hobby if the information wasn't out there. As a result of becoming informed, I have not and will never create hybrid frogs and I'm pretty careful to document the origins of my frogs' bloodlines and I try to minimize inbreeding as much as possible.

Having said that, I can also understand the position of people who have gotten into frogs after having kept reptiles and many birds and mammals, especially domesticated species. We have to realize that many people have never been told that creating hybrids is a bad thing.

It's important to educate people, but it is counterproductive to question their ethics in this matter unless there is a documented history of wrecklessness and greed. And, most folks will have a serious problem if they are singled out as unethical. Clearly, it's generally considered ethical to create hybrids of domesticated animals, whether they be dogs, cattle, or chickens. Creating hybrid rodents for feeders that might maximize productivity and nutrition is considered a good thing. Hybridization in the reptile world is widely accepted and even encouraged and most people don't consider it unethical. So, if someone comes into the frog hobby from that type of background, they will likely not understand why anyone would call them unethical for producing a hybrid amphibian. I believe that educating is much more effective that arguing with them over ethics. Telling someone the rational reasons for not creating hybrids will be far better received that simply saying they're an idiot the first time the issue comes up. And since new people enter the hobby every day, the message will have to be patiently repeated over and over and over. It might get frustrating, but that's the best way to convince people.

Ethics and arguments over whether hybridization is good or bad aside, an interesting discussion would be what evidence is there regarding the potential impacts of hybridization on wild populations. Obviously, if a breeding program is intended to create a pool of animals for re-introduction, then extreme care must be taken to preserve the genetic integrity of the captive population. And due to chytrid, there could be an unprecidented need to reintroduce many species of amphibians in the future. But, under normal circumstances, is there any scientific evidence to suggest, for example, whether all the hybridization of red rat snakes (corn snakes) in the pet trade has had or will have a negative impact on the wild populations? I think this might be a worthy discussion that could be conducted without the personal attacks.

I appreciate the outside opinion on it Jim. These issues venture back to the reptile hobby mostly the snake breeders and I know the ideas in it are purely ideas of how to make the next fad and make a quick buck doing it. Hybridization ideas and practices get worse as times go by. We need to set a strong defense against it now.

Welcome aboard. Nice to somebody else feels the same way. I prefer things the way mother nature makes them. I can't stand hybrids and man-made morphs. It seems the snake breeders are the ones doing this most often. I don't need or want the latest man-morph/hybrid some ambitious breeder produced.

The natural beauty in these frogs are far better than any man made morph or hybrid. Glad to see others agree on this issue.

O wow looks like i found the thread of self proclaimed know it alls.


P.S. HYBRIDS FOR LIFE

No you just found out where the smart people are posting thats all. Care to add anything slightly intelligent or atleast hobby related opinion to it?


There seems to be a problem here. Im seeing alot of opinion supporting hybridization and it seems to mostly be those who say they dont mix. Im wondering if some of you arent just out to start ****. If you seriously cant find a natural frog you actually like than this hobby is not for you. How do you figure your going to like the new hybrid your creating until you see it morph out. Seems like a long shot to me and more likely your just looking for a new fad and quick buck like I said. If you plan to see our hobby crash out like the rest of the herp hobby your on your way so keep it up. There seems to be more interest in the scientific and research end of our part of the hobby and if its going to advance it needs to be done as a whole. Hybridization is not natural and is not the key. We have chytrid and other things to deal with now and another issue that needs to be brought to the light is keeping locale data on our amphibians as there are unrelated populations from seperate locales that need to be noted and kept track of. How do you do this with a hybrid? How do you do anything with a hybrid? You know what Ive told dart breeders for years when they throw out that oops I ''Accidentally'' created a hybrid? You need to learn what culling is. Possible hybrids would have never made it passed the egg stage on my end. If you are doing this ask your self why. Is there any reason to do this other than creating a fad or making some money? Its surely not helping out anything else. Why try and change the natural order of things? Mother nature cant be bested, There are plenty of choices out there for frogs, Hybrids are not needed, Stop mixing.

Michael

[SethD]

There seems to be a problem here. Im seeing alot of opinion supporting hybridization and it seems to mostly be those who say they dont mix. Im wondering if some of you arent just out to start ****. If you seriously cant find a natural frog you actually like than this hobby is not for you.

Don't you think it is a little humorous that you come to the board by your own admission because you "heard about" the little anti-hybrid ruckus that one guy decided to raise over someone else's pet horned frog and now you are saying you think other people are out to stir something up because they don't agree with you? Remember this forum has not had a problem with anti-hybrid-anything extremists harassing people for their choice of pet frogs in the past, this is something new. Before no one found it necessary to lecture on the subject as if anyone who liked or produced a hybrid frog was an idiot, greedy, or somehow out to destroy the hobby. I also think your my way or the highway attitude about the hobby is a little humorous. Implying that if someone likes or has a hybrid they have the wrong hobby is kind of silly. Believe it or not yours is not the only point of view and the hobby does not begin or end with a narrow circle of like minded dart frog hobbyists who have developed their own personal code of ethics about all sorts of things and wish to thrust it into other areas of the hobby and upon other people that don't really need or want it. You won't succeed in doing that anyway, all that you will succeed in doing is in creating unnecessary conflict between many of those that are primarily dart froggers and those not so closely tied to that particular portion of the amphibian hobby. There is no reason why froggers from one part of the hobby should call froggers from another part of the hobby "greedy" and "unethical" just because they don't see the hobby through the same color lens. It is unfortunate that more dart froggers can't accept the fact that just because something doesn't fit their personal preferences and the accepted template in their portion of the hobby it is no Casus bellum on much of the rest of the frog hobby.

[Tony]

It is unfortunate that more dart froggers can't accept the fact that just because something doesn't fit their personal preferences and the accepted template in their portion of the hobby it is no Casus bellum on much of the rest of the frog hobby.

Have you ever stopped to consider where all of the major advancements in the hobby are coming from? Where the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate? Which part of the hobby has the highest number of captive bred frogs available, often with bloodline and locality data? The answer is the dart frog community. Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs. My goal in the hobby is to establish as many tree frogs species in captivity as I possibly can, and to do it with the accuracy and dedication that I have learned on the dart side. "The rest of the hobby" is a disorganized mess of casual owners, people who want to turn frogs into the next corn snake or leopard gecko, and a few true hobbyists who have the vision and the ambition to bring the respectability of the dart frog hobby to other frogs. If I can do my part to rally those few people and accomplish something positive I don't care how many fantasy frog owners I upset along the way.

[SethD]

Have you ever stopped to consider where all of the major advancements in the hobby are coming from? Where the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate?

That is pretty subjective since most of the "advances" in the hobby dart frog hobbyists make are relevant primarily to dart frogs. As far as the dart frog hobby being where "the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate" sure there are plenty of knowledgeable people there. There are also plenty of knowledgeable people in other areas too though I agree the dart frog hobby is larger than the "other frogs" portion of the hobby.

Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs..... "The rest of the hobby" is a disorganized mess of casual owners, people who want to turn frogs into the next corn snake or leopard gecko, and a few true hobbyists who have the vision and the ambition to bring the respectability of the dart frog hobby to other frogs. If I can do my part to rally those few people and accomplish something positive I don't care how many fantasy frog owners I upset along the way.

You know I think most of that portion of your post speaks for itself. I know you have a lot of tree frogs right now. I also know from reading your posts in other forums that you have been spending a lot of money lately and got most of them within the past six months. As far as that is concerned more power to you. However if the vast majority of the "primary focus of your collection" was acquired within the past six months and by your own admission in the amphibian section of the gecko forum you had your first clutch from a "leaf breeding species" on 09/19/2010 I still consider you more of a dart frogger than a tree frog focused hobbyist. That is not to say you won't grow into one and its not to say your not capable now either, I don't know about that and I am not putting you down for that, but it is to say that you seem to have acquired most of your attitude and positions from the dart frog hobby and now seem to be trying to imply that you have not. As part of the "disorganized mess of casual owners" I suppose, I would rather have new people who may or may not know a lot, but who are willing to learn, willing to use logic, willing to work through things themselves, and don't have their nose so high in the air and think so highly of themselves that they are perfectly happy to step all over anyone and everyone, call them idiots, and view them as rabble purely because they have a difference of opinion on some issues.

[Kurt]

Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs.

Same here, my main focus are treefrogs particularly those of the Neotropical region. I also agree that man-made-morphs and hybrids are just plain wrong, maybe a little evil. Why do people feel the need to make wild animals into domestic animals? If you want something like that get a dog. What attracts me to frogs (and wild animals in general) is the fact that they are natural and untampered with, a slice of the wild. I want what I have to be just like I would find it in the great outdoors. I think that bringing hybrids into batraculture will eventually make the hobby more about domesticated amphibians and less about of the wild and mother nature, and I think that is just sad. Look at corn snakes, they're just about domestic animals at this point.

So people please stop tampering with the natural order. There are plenty of species out there to keep you busy. That's why I wrote the Meet The Frog Series. I wrote it to expose people to what is actually out there. Of course some of it is beyond the reach of most of us, but there are some in the series that are quite attainable. Just go to CalPhotos: Animals and be blown away by what you see.

[SethD]

Right now Im starting with Scaphiophryne gottlebei or red rain frogs and will likely take on a few others over winter. I plan to post up my projects and show any success as I have new ideas on how to tackly successfull breeding and tad raising.

On a side note don't let them get to hot, they are quite vulnerable to heat spikes a lot like most of the mantella species. I fiddled with them some in past years but found they really needed cooler temps than I could easily provide here in texas. They seemed a pretty tough and greedy little frog otherwise though. Stunning colors as well of course. I don't really suspect new breeding tactics are likely to be needed with this species, the same basic tactics that usually work on toads and other explosive breeders will induce amplexus and while I never got eggs I only had a small group and didn't fiddle with them for more than a year or so due to the problems with heat. Best of luck with them.

[poison beauties]

Don't you think it is a little humorous that you come to the board by your own admission because you "heard about" the little anti-hybrid ruckus that one guy decided to raise over someone else's pet horned frog and now you are saying you think other people are out to stir something up because they don't agree with you? Remember this forum has not had a problem with anti-hybrid-anything extremists harassing people for their choice of pet frogs in the past, this is something new. Before no one found it necessary to lecture on the subject as if anyone who liked or produced a hybrid frog was an idiot, greedy, or somehow out to destroy the hobby. I also think your my way or the highway attitude about the hobby is a little humorous. Implying that if someone likes or has a hybrid they have the wrong hobby is kind of silly. Believe it or not yours is not the only point of view and the hobby does not begin or end with a narrow circle of like minded dart frog hobbyists who have developed their own personal code of ethics about all sorts of things and wish to thrust it into other areas of the hobby and upon other people that don't really need or want it. You won't succeed in doing that anyway, all that you will succeed in doing is in creating unnecessary conflict between many of those that are primarily dart froggers and those not so closely tied to that particular portion of the amphibian hobby. There is no reason why froggers from one part of the hobby should call froggers from another part of the hobby "greedy" and "unethical" just because they don't see the hobby through the same color lens. It is unfortunate that more dart froggers can't accept the fact that just because something doesn't fit their personal preferences and the accepted template in their portion of the hobby it is no Casus bellum on much of the rest of the frog hobby.

Absolutely its humerous, But not on my part to show up. Its humerous that froggers have been posting up hybrids and talking about mixing and noone other than Tony has had anything to counter it with. How are new hobbyists to decide what is best for them if all they see are pro mixing threads and posts on hybrids whether they are darts, toads or pacmans. Like Tony said, who are the most respected in our hobby? Its not the pacman crowd or the the ones who are mixing species or supporting it. Its us because we do the work. You are looking at this the wrong way. We are not trying to rule the hobby, We are trying to help it advance for all of us. We do the research, we do the bulk of the testing and advance the husbandry for captive breeding. We only want to help the other amphibians in the same way. And another stupid thing I hear is none of the frogs here will be used for reintroduction. Do you know why? Because more of you than not dont practice proper captive breeding practices in order to even pull it off. Do you think that the zoos and institutions can honestly cover the needs for an repopulation project? They cant and we will not ever be considered for doing our part if the hobby is divided on the simple issues. Simply put if and when there is ever a plan to start reintroducing species you will not have a clue in hell as to what it takes as you guys dont know **** about locales, line info and other little things like quarentine, testing and even how to keep your offspring and breeders tracked in order to continue unrelated lines for the benefit of their future. Do you know anything about acclimating frogs in the wild before they are released? How about setting up a proper diet and a variety that only dart froggers seem to practice? If you did know would you practice it as many of these species are on the verge of and will disapear from the wild in time. Without the help of a dedicated hobby the reintroduction projects will fail and wont be able to produce what we can. It seems to me you guys need more Dart Froggers on the boards helping to share knowledge that will better the hobby. If you have been a paet of the herp hobby for as long as I have youve seen the changes and you know where its going wrong. Is there anything wrong with wanting to know where exactly your frogs came from and what they are related to and how to go about continuing the lines without unneeded inbreeding or selective breeding.

On a side note don't let them get to hot, they are quite vulnerable to heat spikes a lot like most of the mantella species. I fiddled with them some in past years but found they really needed cooler temps than I could easily provide here in texas. They seemed a pretty tough and greedy little frog otherwise though. Stunning colors as well of course. I don't really suspect new breeding tactics are likely to be needed with this species, the same basic tactics that usually work on toads and other explosive breeders will induce amplexus and while I never got eggs I only had a small group and didn't fiddle with them for more than a year or so due to the problems with heat. Best of luck with them.

I know to keep them cool and as for the other needs I know them as well, Remember Im a Dart Frogger, we do our research! And new breeding and husbandry techniques are due as they have not been successfully captive bred here and what I have in the works in a group effort project on them and will be for the others to come. Im personally starting with twenty of them in a custom 8'x4'x24 inch viv with a few new advancments. Nice slow moving current and flood setup. I will be sharing it in time/

Michael

[SethD]

Like Tony said, who are the most respected in our hobby? Its not the pacman crowd or the the ones who are mixing species or supporting it. Its us because we do the work. You are looking at this the wrong way. We are not trying to rule the hobby, We are trying to help it advance for all of us. We do the research, we do the bulk of the testing and advance the husbandry for captive breeding. We only want to help the other amphibians in the same way.

I get it, it's not that your trying to "rule" the rest of the hobby, it is just that the rest of the hobby is so stupid and unlearned that your doing this all for our good. We should be so ashamed for disagreeing with the the brilliant, hard working dart froggers who have come to giude us out of darkness into enlightenment. Forgive us.

And another stupid thing I hear is none of the frogs here will be used for reintroduction. Do you know why? Because more of you than not dont practice proper captive breeding practices in order to even pull it off. Do you think that the zoos and institutions can honestly cover the needs for an repopulation project? They cant and we will not ever be considered for doing our part if the hobby is divided on the simple issues. Simply put if and when there is ever a plan to start reintroducing species you will not have a clue in hell as to what it takes as you guys dont know **** about locales, line info and other little things like quarentine, testing and even how to keep your offspring and breeders tracked in order to continue unrelated lines for the benefit of their future. Do you know anything about acclimating frogs in the wild before they are released? How about setting up a proper diet and a variety that only dart froggers seem to practice? If you did know would you practice it as many of these species are on the verge of and will disapear from the wild in time. Without the help of a dedicated hobby the reintroduction projects will fail and wont be able to produce what we can. It seems to me you guys need more Dart Froggers on the boards helping to share knowledge that will better the hobby.

I hate to break it to you but the dart frog hobbys frogs are not going to be used for reintroductions either unless "maybe" and this is a big maybe, the species in question is totally extict in the wild. It is a dream, but a highly unrealistic one.

If you have been a paet of the herp hobby for as long as I have youve seen the changes and you know where its going wrong.

I have been following the hobby since the early 90's. It has changed sure, going wrong tends to be a matter of perspective. If your talking about high priced morphs and such, eventually it will balance out, it always does.

I know to keep them cool and as for the other needs I know them as well, Remember Im a Dart Frogger, we do our research! And new breeding and husbandry techniques are due as they have not been successfully captive bred here and what I have in the works in a group effort project on them and will be for the others to come. Im personally starting with twenty of them in a custom 8'x4'x24 inch viv with a few new advancments. Nice slow moving current and flood setup. I will be sharing it in time/

Michael

You know the attitude and level of arrogance you and a lot of dart froggers like you have almost makes me hope your project flops. However I would like to see more such species established so I wish you success even though success would most likely just add another level of silly arrogance to your attitude.

[Kurt]

Remember Im a Dart Frogger, we do our research!

You seem to be insinuating that only the dart froggers do research, I can assure you that is not the case. I don't consider myself a dart frogger, even though I have some. I am a frogger. I look at the big picture and not just a small part, and I do my research, as do a lot of other non-dart froggers. There are plenty of non-dart froggers that I highly respect, more so than some of the dart froggers I know. A lot of the dart froggers I know are only interested in darts and there is nothing wrong with it, other than its a limited viewpoint. The order Anura is so much bigger than one family of frogs from the Neotropics.

That being said, I am 100% in agreement about hybrids and man-made-morphs. Couldn't agree more.