Hello from Atlanta GA

[poison beauties]

Yes, I know it. I argue for them not so much out of personal interest in them(never actually bought or had a hybrid frog) but because I think a lot of froggers get so stuck in group thought that they don't think for themselves. This limits innovation in anything not approved by the group. I have seen a lot of smart people that could have done a lot for the hobby be shot down by group thought. Instead they became pretty much like everybody else. This group mentality constricts the hobby a great deal. Everyone wants to be well thought of, and nobody want to contradict conventional wisdom even if conventional wisdom is based on emotion instead of fact. Now I don't think conventional wisdom should be thrown out just because it is conventional, but it should be examined to see if it really makes sense or not. If that sort of thinking bothers people, that is unfortunate, but the hobby advances only slowly without it.



Frankly my rep among your dendroboard buddies is no great concern of mine. I only have a few friends there anyway and I doubt they would have a fit since they tend to be reasonable people. Probably 80% of my frogs are wild caught too since I enjoy working with species either uncommonly or never bred before in the hobby so you or your buddies not selling me frogs wouldn't bug me much either. If someone is such a snob that they would refuse to do business with or would look down on someone who produced hybrids to make a point and labeled them as such they are probably not the sort of person I would get along with anyway in the long term. I encourage people to experiment and try things for themselves, within reason of course.



Lol, one thing I don't much care for is threats. I was half joking but I can probably be pushed into actually doing it. I vist dendroboard because there are some good guys there, but there are also a lot of people that act like lemmings unfortunately.

First off I threatened noone and secondly if you think there are that many people over there that would be ok with you producing or working with hybrids you really not in touch with the dart frog hobby or not near as in touch with it as I am. creating hybrids is breaking one of the golden rules as there is much more work going on with darts as far as locale, import and line data than any other frogs you work with. The darts are a beautifull natural representation of whats out there and many want it to stay that way.

And as for only wanting to work with rare or unbred captive frogs thats fine and many need to be bred here to decrease the demand for importing. I have worked with a few of the hardest to breed and keep thriving species and some were before these boards were even up and running. Im also collecting a few species from madagascar to take on that have never been successfully bred in captivity. That still does not take away from the hybrid issues,

Michael

[John911]

And as for only wanting to work with rare or unbred captive frogs thats fine and many need to be bred here to decrease the demand for importing. I have worked with a few of the hardest to breed and keep thriving species and some were before these boards were even up and running. Im also collecting a few species from madagascar to take on that have never been successfully bred in captivity. That still does not take away from the hybrid issues,

Michael

Good luck in your efforts Michael. What species are you going to attempt?

[SethD]

if you think there are that many people over there that would be ok with you producing or working with hybrids you really not in touch with the dart frog hobby or not near as in touch with it as I am. creating hybrids is breaking one of the golden rules as there is much more work going on with darts as far as locale, import and line data than any other frogs you work with. The darts are a beautifull natural representation of whats out there and many want it to stay that way.

For one thing I didn't say there are many people over on dendroboard that wouldn't have an issue with it, I am sure a lot of them would have a fit if they found out someone hybridized something even if it was a species they had no interest in and know little about anyway. What I said was that I only have a few friends over there to begin with and they tend to be reasonable enough people that they aren't going to panic at the mention of a hybrid frog that isn't going to hurt a thing. I think they are capable of looking at issues like this from a practical point of view without allowing emotion to run away with them. I also wasn't talking about hybrid darts. I understand the initial practical reasoning behind not mixing those before all the emotion that is now mixed into the issue arose. The initial main reason for not hybridizing darts is that there is a huge variety of species and morphs with new morphs not infrequently being discovered and coming into the hobby and therefore hybrids could be confusing. That still holds true today.

None of that is a problem though with horned frogs or other species with not nearly as much variety, where only a handful of people breed them, and where hybrids tend to be obvious and or infertile. I also don't see a real problem with hybrids in cases where natural wild hybrids occur with considerable frequency in areas where species ranges overlap, toads within the bufo americanus species group being a excellent and easily observed example of that. In situations like that hybrids are no big deal. All the toads in the americanus group, woodhousii, microscaphus, terrestris, fowleri, hemiophrys, americanus, and houstonensis are capable of producing fertile crosses with other species in that group(see some of the work frank blair of the university of texas did regarding hybridization in toads all the way back back in the 50's-70's) and do so when habitat overlaps in spite of differences in the males calls. The offspring integrate back into the population frequently producing completely natural and obvious hybrid zones with it now being possible to trace gene flow via genetic markers even farther into areas where a species looks "pure" and there is no longer any range overlap. If there is a market for hybrids in those categories for what ever reason then fine, it hurts nothing. It is no more a problem than producing color morphs of a "pure" species. I don't know if you have a problem with that too or not, some in the anti-hybrid-anything crowd do and some don't, but I don't see a problem with either.

[bshmerlie]

Oh man...I was hoping this would die. We are all going to have to agree to disagree. They are just different points of view. No one on either side is going to be able to convince the other. This conversation is futile.

[JimO]

Let me just say a few things. First, I do appreciate having information available related to the many reasons not to crossbreed darts, even different morphs. I would never have known it was a problem years ago when I first became interested in the hobby if the information wasn't out there. As a result of becoming informed, I have not and will never create hybrid frogs and I'm pretty careful to document the origins of my frogs' bloodlines and I try to minimize inbreeding as much as possible.

Having said that, I can also understand the position of people who have gotten into frogs after having kept reptiles and many birds and mammals, especially domesticated species. We have to realize that many people have never been told that creating hybrids is a bad thing.

It's important to educate people, but it is counterproductive to question their ethics in this matter unless there is a documented history of wrecklessness and greed. And, most folks will have a serious problem if they are singled out as unethical. Clearly, it's generally considered ethical to create hybrids of domesticated animals, whether they be dogs, cattle, or chickens. Creating hybrid rodents for feeders that might maximize productivity and nutrition is considered a good thing. Hybridization in the reptile world is widely accepted and even encouraged and most people don't consider it unethical. So, if someone comes into the frog hobby from that type of background, they will likely not understand why anyone would call them unethical for producing a hybrid amphibian. I believe that educating is much more effective that arguing with them over ethics. Telling someone the rational reasons for not creating hybrids will be far better received that simply saying they're an idiot the first time the issue comes up. And since new people enter the hobby every day, the message will have to be patiently repeated over and over and over. It might get frustrating, but that's the best way to convince people.

Ethics and arguments over whether hybridization is good or bad aside, an interesting discussion would be what evidence is there regarding the potential impacts of hybridization on wild populations. Obviously, if a breeding program is intended to create a pool of animals for re-introduction, then extreme care must be taken to preserve the genetic integrity of the captive population. And due to chytrid, there could be an unprecidented need to reintroduce many species of amphibians in the future. But, under normal circumstances, is there any scientific evidence to suggest, for example, whether all the hybridization of red rat snakes (corn snakes) in the pet trade has had or will have a negative impact on the wild populations? I think this might be a worthy discussion that could be conducted without the personal attacks.

[John]

If anyone thought I was trying to imitate Dendroboard when I started FrogForum, it sure looks like I'm succeeding. At least it hasn't degenerated into name calling like the pacman thread.

To those involved in this thread: If you must have this conversation, at least flesh it out with some facts and useful information. 99% of the 4 pages so far have been opinion rather than facts. Hey, how about some references?

JimO: I welcome the mature and thoughtful tone of your post - thank you. However, regarding reintroductions to the wild, the scientific community will never reintroduce anything that has gone through the hobbyist. It's sad but true (and there is at least some sound reasoning to it). That's what saddens me about Tree Walkers International - the taxon management plans are little more than a way for hobbyists to make themselves feel relevant some how. I'm a member of TWI but I firmly believe that conservation and saving species are beyond the scope of that organization. Better to donate money to charities working on the ground, and fund scientific conservation-relevant research as we do on Caudata.org in partnership with Amphibian Ark.