Hello from Atlanta GA

[Tony]

I agree with Seth, why don't you put your energy where you can really help the hobby.

Educating people on why solid genetic management is a good idea IS helping the hobby. Preserving frogs in captivity that are vanishing in the wild is much more valuable than creating a bunch of hybrid frankenfrogs and losing the species they were made from.

[SethD]

Educating people on why solid genetic management is a good idea IS helping the hobby. Preserving frogs in captivity that are vanishing in the wild is much more valuable than creating a bunch of hybrid frankenfrogs and losing the species they were made from.

How many frogs in the hobby, pure or not would fit the criteria for introduction? Very few if any. How many frog species have been "lost" due to captive hybridization? None that I am aware of. Your objections tend to be more based on emotion than fact. That is fine, but just because your emotional about the issue it doesn't follow that everyone who doesn't see it exactly as you do is wrong. It is a hobby for enjoyment after all, different people enjoy different things. Further, some 'frankenfrogs" as you call them, occur naturally in the wild in many places, it isn't the end of the world. Wild hybrids are well documented in numerous north american toad species with overlapping ranges, and natural hybrids also occur in some toads of the melanophryniscus group whose ranges overlap and doubtless in many other species as well. If we had the ability to better document frogs in the wild I think you might be surprised how many species hybridize in the wild upon occasion when the conditions are right.

[Tony]

Feel free to point out where I said anything about reintroduction. As far as natural hybrids (aka intergrades) go, I have no ethical issue with them because they are a natural occurrence unlike fantasy frogs or captive dart hybrids.

[boabab95]

I dont mind wild hybrids either, but like tony said, when frogs that dont cross paths in nature, are mixed, then I don't want them, i'd rather have natural than "same environment" hybrids(i.e. saying because they are both from the rainforest, they can be mixed.)

[bshmerlie]

Tony weren't you the one who purchased the imported red eyes with white eyes just a month ago? You can't tell me you didn't buy them simply because they looked cool and different. And when you breed them you'll be charging more for the ones that have the white eyes. Just because a hobbiest didn't make those white eyes doesn't make it different. You'll still be breeding for a variation of the normal Red Eye. And didn't we just say that the original colors were best. Also, if we want to get into another ethical arguement. Why would you find it ethical to purchase wild caught red eyes when they are so abundantly available as captive bred? Aren't you encouraging the frog trafficers to keep taking frogs from the wild no matter how many die before they are ever sold to the public?

[Tony]

Tony weren't you the one who purchased the imported red eyes with white eyes just a month ago? You can't tell me you didn't buy them simply because they looked cool and different.

That is precisely why, it was a cool and different NATURAL variation.

And when you breed them you'll be charging more for the ones that have the white eyes. Just because a hobbiest didn't make those white eyes doesn't make it different. You'll still be breeding for a variation of the normal Red Eye. And didn't we just say that the original colors were best.

It is very different, being a natural occurrence and not a forced pairing like if I were to breed him to an A. annae or A. moreletii.

Also, if we want to get into another ethical arguement. Why would you find it ethical to purchase wild caught red eyes when they are so abundantly available as captive bred? Aren't you encouraging the frog trafficers to keep taking frogs from the wild no matter how many die before they are ever sold to the public?

I prefer to start with wild caught stock whenever possible to ensure a genetically diverse founding population instead of inbreeding frogger X's frogs who probably brought inbred frogs from frogger Y who bought inbred frogs from frogger Z and so on. Red eyes are a species of least concern on the IUCN redlist, imports are not hurting their wild populations.

[bshmerlie]

I prefer to start with wild caught stock whenever possible to ensure a genetically diverse founding population instead of inbreeding frogger X's frogs who probably brought inbred frogs from frogger Y who bought inbred frogs from frogger Z and so on. Red eyes are a species of least concern on the IUCN redlist, imports are not hurting their wild populations.

I'm sorry but when it comes to red eyes that's a cop out , because there are already so many of them already out there. What Brian and Understory are doing with the glass frogs I understand that. But taking frogs from the wild when they are so prevalent here is shameful and shouldn't be encouraged. They're not on the endangered list until they are. They shouldn't be allowed to import any frog species that is already so common in our hobby. As a community we should be breeding what we have to keep up with the demand. Not taking them from the wild. We slaughtered the Buffalo almost to extinction, we slaughtered sea otters to the brink, we over fish our oceans at what point do we learn? We know how to breed them stop taking them from the wild.

[SethD]

Feel free to point out where I said anything about reintroduction.

If that is not your intent then on what basis do you say a "pure" species is more valuable than a hybrid? If there is not going to be a reintroduction the only purpose a captive frog serves is as a pet and therefore it doesn't make much sense to say that a "pure" pet frog is superior to hybrid pet frog. They are both just pets in that case, nothing more, and pets are a matter of personal taste. Certainly nothing to fuss at others about if their tastes differ.

[Tony]

If that is not your intent then on what basis do you say a "pure" species is more valuable than a hybrid?

Because that is their natural state, the awe-inspiring product of millions of years of evolution. Pure species are more beautiful and valuable than hybrids in the same way that a pristine forest is more beautiful and valuable than a shopping mall.

[SethD]

Because that is their natural state, the awe-inspiring product of millions of years of evolution. Pure species are more beautiful and valuable than hybrids in the same way that a pristine forest is more beautiful and valuable than a shopping mall.

So in short, it is a personal preference issue and because you personally like the forest you decree that it is better than a shopping mall. I think both have a place. If I need clothes I would rather get them at the mall than the forest, if I want to relax I would rather be in the forest than the mall. Since a pet is for personal enjoyment it doesn't make sense that because you like the forest metaphorically speaking that it is wrong for someone else to like the mall. That would be like me saying that because I personally don't like cheese no one else should eat it.

[Tony]

So in short, it is a personal preference issue...

I think that an appreciation of the natural world is a more convincing basis for an argument than the childlike tantrum of the "they are my animals and I can do whatever I want" approach you are taking.

[poison beauties]

And Yes natural hybrids do occur but they are are still within a locale or region. And they are unlikely to be common or reenter the gene pool. If you have any knowledge on the natural hybrids you would know that they are not being kept in vivs and bred. The frogs also fair just as much chance if not more to breed with their own species in the wild which is not offered by these people in captivity. As you said the regions and territories do cross. yet many of the hybrids are left sterile and do not continue the gene pool which keeps things in balance,
When you throw a few frogs of different species in a viv its nothing more than the interest of creating a fad or profit that results in many more frogs that flood the market.

Michael