Finally had some success with my B. terrestris

[Greg M]

How are the albino Woodhouse's toads doing? I have been thinking about getting some, but was nervous because of the reported difficulties in raising them. I have no problem with regular Woodhouse's toads (amen on the vitamin A comment), but I was still nervous about the possibility of genetic issues...

[SethD]

How are the albino Woodhouse's toads doing? I have been thinking about getting some, but was nervous because of the reported difficulties in raising them. I have no problem with regular Woodhouse's toads (amen on the vitamin A comment), but I was still nervous about the possibility of genetic issues...

Well I originally picked up ten for 30$ each. Within the first two weeks I lost one, but it was the smallest one by far and didn't appear to be growing much so no great surprise there. It was just dead one morning with no other symptoms. About two weeks after that I lost another one. This one had symptoms similar to the problems others have described in the past. It got bloated, stopped eating, and died after about 4 days. I am pretty sure vitamin A was not the issue with that one since all the toadlets were receiving what should have been a sufficient amount. Not exactly sure of the cause. The other eight are still doing fine and so far have showed no signs of problems. The three largest have grown to around an inch and three quarters while the others range from around an inch and a quarter to an inch and a half. So far I consider my results inconclusive. I will not make up my mind until the remainder of the toads reach adulthood if they indeed do survive to adulthood. At the moment I am inclined to think they are somewhat more delicate and prone to problems than normals(not a uncommon issue with albinos) but that they should be workable. They are probably a bit inbred too and there is a decent chance hardiness could be improved with outcrossing.

Here is a current pic of a couple of the albinos, they are a bit dull, dirty, and nasty looking because they were dug up for the pic. Right after a shed though they are really pretty.



And here is a pic of a couple of the southern toad "toadlets" in this thread that are now well on their way to adulthood. For scale those are large superworms in the pic, the larger "toadlets" are around three inches long. Males have nupital pads and have been calling, but I probably won't try to breed them till next spring.

[Jace]

Those toadlets are looking great...though I would hate to be a superworm in their presence!! I have never seen an albino toad before, but they are definitely interesting looking. Thanks for keeping us posted and I wish you all the best with all of them.

[wesleybrouwer]

Indeed great work on those toads

I would be carefull tough with outbreeding you're albino's.
Outbreeding from a line of incest can turn out to be even more dissasteress then keeping up the inbred.
You're suspision could be right i think, since you need two frogs with the same genetical disorder, albinism, it would be a great chance they are from one and the same bloodline.

My tought about it is they are not right genetically and therefore i don't see the use of breeding a weaker version of an animal.
Most morphs are created by inbred, causing genetical failures and keep inbreeding as long as possible to keep that mutant available for pet trade.
But well, that's just the way i see it
I just like the animals more the way they are the healthiest and nature like.
Breeding weaker versions and crossbreeding is not my cup of tea,
but everyone got it's own look at it ofcourse.
As long as it is clear what is what, everyone can make it's own decisions

Some studies on fish showed the consequences of outbreeding an inbred bloodline, i don't suspect amphibians to be a lot different.
If you don't know of any articles concerning inbred/outbred i can check if i still got the pdf on my hard drive and send it to you.
I think it would be a shame if the attempts will be all for nothing in the end.

Anyways,
keep up the good work

[SethD]

Indeed great work on those toads

I would be carefull tough with outbreeding you're albino's.
Outbreeding from a line of incest can turn out to be even more dissasteress then keeping up the inbred.
You're suspision could be right i think, since you need two frogs with the same genetical disorder, albinism, it would be a great chance they are from one and the same bloodline.

Yes, they are most definitely from the same bloodline. There is only one line of albino woodhousii in the hobby and it is relatively recent at that. Yes I am aware of occasional problems that can result from outcrossing of highly inbred lines but such is much less common than problems from excessive inbreeding. Most of the time outcrossing strengthens a line by increasing genetic diversity. Further, these toads haven't been around long enough to get that inbred.

My tought about it is they are not right genetically and therefore i don't see the use of breeding a weaker version of an animal.
Most morphs are created by inbred, causing genetical failures and keep inbreeding as long as possible to keep that mutant available for pet trade.

Humans have always done that. That is what dogs, sheep and pretty much any domestic livestock are. Generally they are selectively bred forms that are significantly mutated from the original wild stock in a way that would not help them in the wild but that does help them in captivity because humans consider it desirable for what ever reason, be it for pet quality, egg, milk, or meat production, or what have you. As far as inbreeding, in and of it self it is not a serious problem, what it does is bring out what ever genes are there in the founders and greatly increases the likelihood that a given individual will be homozygous instead of heterozygous for a given gene that was present in the founders. That can be good or bad, it all depends on the gene. Since most animals carry both desirable and undesirable genes weeding out the undesirable genes while keeping the desirable ones is what selective breeding is all about.

[wesleybrouwer]

I didnt know of the recent background of the albino bloodline of woodhousii.
The advanced inbreed problems might not be that big then.

I understand the way they made different dogbreeds out of a wolf.
But in my point of view i am concerned of the fact there will be woodhousii with the appearance of the normal ones,
in their genes lies the albino gene that doesn't show up because they need 2 of those genes in a pair in order to make it visible.

Even when i am going to breed it with a toad without the disorder,
chances tell me i can still get a hidden flaw in my offspring without me even knowing.

As if i am going to breed 2 german shepards and all of a sudden they give labor to a chihuahua because they got hidden genes that only shows up when both parents pass it on.
Might be a tad overdone this example, but i would be disappointed if it happens to me when i chose to get the normal ones i get them with hidden flaws coming up later on.


Anyways, there should be other people that would like to have some.
As i said before, i don't mind, as long as it stays clear for me to choose wether i like to have one with a malfunction or not.

On the other hand, i am also curious if you can succeed in keeping the flaw in the form of albinism but eliminate the problems like being weaker as normal ones.
So in line of the scientific part i think it is interesting to see if there is a strong connection between albinism and weaker animals.
But in line of my love for the frogs as they are supposed to be by nature, i think it's scary getting all kinds of hidden flaws in my own bloodlines.

[SethD]

But in my point of view i am concerned of the fact there will be woodhousii with the appearance of the normal ones,
in their genes lies the albino gene that doesn't show up because they need 2 of those genes in a pair in order to make it visible. Even when i am going to breed it with a toad without the disorder, chances tell me i can still get a hidden flaw in my offspring without me even knowing. As if i am going to breed 2 german shepards and all of a sudden they give labor to a chihuahua because they got hidden genes that only shows up when both parents pass it on.Might be a tad overdone this example, but i would be disappointed if it happens to me when i chose to get the normal ones i get them with hidden flaws coming up later on.

Well given the fact that there are less than 20 breeders/hobbyists(and that is being generous due to the recent interest in and successes with melanophryniscus stelzneri, a more realistic number would be more like five or six if one doesn't count M. stelzneri) in the United States that are very likely to breed any kind of bufonid at this time the issue of "tainting" the captive population with hidden and unwanted genetics is pretty much a non-issue. Further, if someone wants a "guaranteed pure" wild type woodhousii that is, and is likely to remain, pretty easy to get given that they are native to the USA, quite common, and usually unprotected.

But in line of my love for the frogs as they are supposed to be by nature, i think it's scary getting all kinds of hidden flaws in my own bloodlines.

Again, not really an issue with bufonids, virtually no one breeds any of them. Before "tainted bloodlines" can be a legitimate concern there would have to be a whole lot more toad breeders than there are. Toads aren't like poison frogs where there are numerous captive lines of numerous species and hundreds of different breeders. Right now and for the foreseeable future if someone didn't specifically tell you otherwise the phototype of a given toad specimen is most likely its genotype and even if it were not it wouldn't make a bit of practical difference except to a handful of people who would most likely be tickled if they bred a specimen and it proved out to have a unusual genotype.

[Mordecai]

Wow! I just saw this post. I'm so happy for your breeding success! Great pictures too. Look forward to seeing more!

[Greg M]

Hmm… I have been thinking my way through the genetics here...

I would be interested in seeing the article on fish breeding with respect to outcrossing highly inbred lines. In the lab, we regularly outcross mutants derived through mutagenesis to remove background mutations and normalize the genetic background (as much as possible) relative to the wildtype. Of course, we can usually follow the mutation of interest (by PCR, for example) through the outcrossing process, and simply rely on diluting any deleterious alleles through repeated outcrosses. I guess an argument against outcrossing is that it can simply conceal a deleterious recessive mutation by making it heterozygous, in which case it may reappear in subsequent generations. In addition, if the deleterious allele is tightly linked to the desired trait, it may be difficult or impossible to separate the two. If there is no other way to sustain the line (and it is a matter of personal opinion whether it would be worthwhile to do so), then outcrossing may be the only option (and it may not work). Personally, I think the albino Woodhouse’s toads look fabulous and I would love to see them preserved and improved through careful breeding.

[wesleybrouwer]

**
Now it is getting difficult for me to discuss heavy material in another language then my own

I'l do my best anyways
**

As i clearified my personal point of view on breeding a weaker varieaty of a species,
what is the case with albinism.
Albino's aren't as hardy as the normal version,
noticable here as well.

It is a disorder in wich both parents got to possess the gene for albinism to get albino offspring.
Only when mating 2 albino's there is a chance of 100% of getting albino offspring.

To reach this again after outbreeding, there have to be heterozygous steps between that.
Nobody will be able to see that it has some kind of disorder but it IS there.
Now as this line spreads trough the hobby, there might be a point where i am not certain if i got a healthy frog so to speak.
Resulting in more and more albino's, surpressing the original form.
That is what i mean, do whatever you please as long as it is clear what is what.
So far a personal concern

To the problems of outbreeding;

When for example a colony excists with lots of the same genes trough inbred,
there is a possibility that those genes are evolved to the specific area.
The animals might be resistant to types of disease for example.
When outbreeding those animals, you can take away the resistence and make them prone to the threats they created a specific genetic against.

Another possibility is that for example an isolated colony evolves it;s genetics in a different way then another colony does.
This way the genetics can become less and less matchable,
resulting in bad offspring.
As i see it, a captive population can be seen as an isolated colony.
Putting in genes from another colony can cause problems in the missmatching genes.

As an albino form is something created trough excessive inbreeding,
putting in a wild form can mean their genes don't match the way they used to anymore.
Altough there is a possibility that the line of inbred isn't in an advanced stage,
but then again, i don't like the idea of not visible but genetical incorrect specimens getting into my breeding groups.

My guess would be that the albino genes are closely related to the ones that are responsible for the high mortality within this form.
Mother nature cures itself, so to speak.
In nature not much albino's survive for long time since they are not as healthy as the "normal" of their kind are, they got multiple disadvantages as well.

When outbreeding succeeds you got to select the genetic disorder again in order to get albino's again.
You are picking out the animals with a genetic disorder and breed them along again.
As soon as you get the "pure" albino again they are also teased by bad genetics.
The same genetics that were in the first frog you tried to improve, since the normal form isn't able to provide a different set of genes on that part of the DNA.

In my point of view, little chance you can improve a malfunction of the genetics while keeping the disorder

[SethD]

[FONT=&quot]Hmm… I have been thinking my way through the genetics here...

I would be interested in seeing the article on fish breeding with respect to outcrossing highly inbred lines.

Well I know with bettas when fixing traits it is a fairly standard practice to inbreed two separate lines up to the fifth generation and then outcross for strength. That is assuming no problems have showed up earlier. Normally you can inbreed up to aprox. the eighth generation before you start having serious problems with sterility etc. I believe aprox the same number of generations applies to mice as well. Occasionally you will get lucky and have a strain that does not start to self destruct from inbreeding between aprox. the 8th and 12th generation. If they make it past the 12th generation or so of inbreeding without falling apart often times things smooth out and you have created essentially a purebred strain where all specimens are very similar genetically. This is rare though because most founder individuals carry enough hidden genetic flaws to destroy a line if their offspring are inbred to excess. If you don't outcross to ensure continuing genetic strength if your line is to survive you essentially must start with genetically flawless individuals and that is quite rare and impossible to know without proving it out over many generations.

In the case of these albino woodhouse toads if I were to venture a educated guess I would say they are inbred no more than about three or four generations at the very most and quite possibly less. The original group of albino woodhouse toads were supposedly found as eggs in Nevada if I recall, I forget what year but I am thinking it was 2005, then those albinos were bred together and albino woodhouse toads have been produced and offered for sale in 2007,2008, and 2010. In the past they have given quite a few problems to some while still in the toadlet stage, lots of people had issues with bloating followed by them dieing off in previous years. Thus there was considerable speculation about some type of genetic flaw being prevalent in the albino woodhouse toads. However, the relatively few folks that successfully reared some to adulthood had no issues after that that I heard of. As far as I am concerned the question is still an open one and the only way to figure it out for sure is to breed them over several more generations. Albino's in general seem to be more likely to have health issues than other color mutations so if some genetic flaw frequently goes with the albino woodhousii it would be no great surprise, however in many species and various strains of albinism the majority of the issues can be resolved via careful breeding.