Group lobbying for possible Amphibian pet trade ban in US

[Kurt]

Why is it that herp hobbyists in general seldom actually read the text of rule changes or legislation before getting into an uproar about them?

I think its people in general. Just look at the big uproar over Healthcare reform. The right had a lot of people so scared over it. Did any one of these scared, paranoid people actually read it? Probably not, its too long to read, so they listened to the pundits and got angry.
I have read the proposal and I agree with it, so does Frank Indiviglio. Spot testing needs to be done on imports. Not every frog needs to be tested, just a few from each shipment. There is no need at this point to panic or get paranoid.

[Iratus ranunculus]

I think its people in general. Just look at the big uproar over Healthcare reform. The right had a lot of people so scared over it. Did any one of these scared, paranoid people actually read it? Probably not, its too long to read, so they listened to the pundits and got angry.
I have read the proposal and I agree with it, so does Frank Indiviglio. Spot testing needs to be done on imports. Not every frog needs to be tested, just a few from each shipment. There is no need at this point to panic or get paranoid.

I think the herp community is particularly bad though. Particularly the snake people. There is a libertarian streak the size of Siberia, as angry as the Gaza Strip, and as short-sighted as a naked mole rat within that community. They are ideologically opposed to any form of regulation whatsoever. It is ridiculous.

[John]

There is a question of post-deletion which I see has happened with some of those by one named Crotalus (my roommate for the summer, and collaborator). If the posts were deleted for TOS violations, accidentally or through computer glitch (board reverting to backups or something) then that is one thing. Deleting them for the purposes of censoring is another and even if legal and within one's rights as admin/staff/mod is not morally OK. It would be nice if that was clarified. He is standing over my shoulder wondering where his posts went.

I deleted the posts between Crotalus and Paul (one of our moderators) because none of the posts were constructive or contributed anything to the discussion of the issue at hand. There is no legal question and I have complete discretion to remove posts that are not even vaguely on topic - the posts were silly.

Regarding your other points - I actually agree with you for the most part, though frankly I think you give herpetologists and zoos far greater praise than they deserve. Most zoo personnel know what they need to know to look after the animals in their care, and that's about it. There are exceptions (I am friends with a few) but zoos pay very little and therefore rarely recruit people who are at the top of their game.

Regarding scientists, as a research scientist with a PhD, a considerable list of research publications in peer reviewed journals, as well as other publications outside of my research but related to amphibians, and having worked in several countries, I can tell you that again, most scientists have relatively little knowledge beyond their own research focus, and state bodies do not pay enough to have many knowledgeable and experienced scientists at their disposal. Don't get me wrong, I truly wish you were correct in your view of scientists - that would be a nice country in which to live.

[John]

One other point I would like to echo from previous posters. Zoos and academics don't give much respect or credence to hobbyists. I can understand their skepticism to a degree, but I know of several hobbyists who accomplish things such as breeding rare species first, finding range extensions for known species, etc. Whether they like it or not, many hobbyists are treasure troves of breeding knowledge and experience that could be utilized for the benefit of rare species. Thankfully, Amphibian Ark's director recognizes this, and through people like him we are starting to wake up so-called professionals that they have respect to give to hobbyists and a lot to learn from them too.

[Iratus ranunculus]

I deleted the posts between Crotalus and Paul (one of our moderators) because none of the posts were constructive or contributed anything to the discussion of the issue at hand. There is no legal question and I have complete discretion to remove posts that are not even vaguely on topic - the posts were silly.

If that is the case I will not press the matter.

Regarding your other points - I actually agree with you for the most part, though frankly I think you give herpetologists and zoos far greater praise than they deserve. Most zoo personnel know what they need to know to look after the animals in their care, and that's about it. There are exceptions (I am friends with a few) but zoos pay very little and therefore rarely recruit people who are at the top of their game.

True enough. However there is the matter of resources. If you want to start up a large captive breeding colony of some ranid frog or hylid, It requires a significant investment in space, money etc. A hobbyist cant do that. A hobbyist may (and often do) figure out how to get animals breeding on a small scale (Rain chambers, photoperiod etc) but to pull a species back from the brink of extinction and not have them later succumb to inbreeding depression is another matter. A lot of species also have issues when being re-released with disease. This is much easier to control in a professional facility like the one I was not allowed to enter at the Fort Worth Zoo for fear of chytrid contamination (The on at the phoenix zoo is another matter )

To really get something done on a large scale, you need technicians and other support personnel. Vets on staff, whole nine yards. An individual biologist may not be any more competent than a hobbyist at husbandry, but zoo facility has resources a hobbyist lacks-if only due to sheer monetary investment.

Regarding scientists, as a research scientist with a PhD, a considerable list of research publications in peer reviewed journals, as well as other publications outside of my research but related to amphibians, and having worked in several countries, I can tell you that again, most scientists have relatively little knowledge beyond their own research focus, and state bodies do not pay enough to have many knowledgeable and experienced scientists at their disposal. Don't get me wrong, I truly wish you were correct in your view of scientists - that would be a nice country in which to live.

Well that is why I was referring specifically to those who do research into amphibian declines and their causes. State agencies dont do a very good job on the pure research end, and reports filed within them are a pain to get access to. However someone at a university doing research on say... pesticide toxicity to amphibians is a good person to talk to. A hobbyist setting up a breeding program will not know anything more than the general broad trends they read in the news and in trade mags. They wont have access or the expertise to be able to find a good release site. They cannot test for chytrid to example to see if their site is contaminated.

One other point I would like to echo from previous posters. Zoos and academics don't give much respect or credence to hobbyists

I have never experienced this, and if I have it does not rise to the level of pettyness. I fully recognize the ability of a hobbyist to give us information on how to breed animals that no one in the scientific community really works with. The hobbyists that do that though as a proportion of the community are few and far between and those that can do it can hardly be considered amatures.

[SludgeMunkey]

While I will not buy into your sarcasm and arrogance, I will point out your quote referenced the wrong law for New Mexico. The current 2010 proposal as seen on the NMFG site explains the new permit system. This is being implemeted as we speak.

[Iratus ranunculus]

While I will not buy into your sarcasm and arrogance, I will point out your quote referenced the wrong law for New Mexico. The current 2010 proposal as seen on the NMFG site explains the new permit system. This is being implemeted as we speak.

The 2010 version is not substantially different.

The fees are as follows:

(a) class 1: importation of 1 to 5 animals 25.00 (b) class 2: importation of 6 to 99 animals 75.00 (c) class 3: importation of greater than 100 animals 300.00

Thousands of dollars yes... Of course. You are only a full order of magnitude off. If you are an importer you may have to eat the cost of disease testing, but having that testing done is perfectly reasonable.

[Molch]

One other point I would like to echo from previous posters. Zoos and academics don't give much respect or credence to hobbyists. I can understand their skepticism to a degree, but I know of several hobbyists who accomplish things such as breeding rare species first, finding range extensions for known species, etc. Whether they like it or not, many hobbyists are treasure troves of breeding knowledge and experience that could be utilized for the benefit of rare species. Thankfully, Amphibian Ark's director recognizes this, and through people like him we are starting to wake up so-called professionals that they have respect to give to hobbyists and a lot to learn from them too.

as a scientist myself, I very much agree with this. There is, undoubtedly, an arrogance in the scientific community at large and a refusal to give due credit to the experience of people who have not gone to school for, like, ever, to get a degree. In some scientific fields scientists are catching on, however: here in Alaska, for example, there is now a much greater effort than ever to collaborate with Native Alaskans and draw on their vast traditional knowledge of animal ecology and behavior. Maybe the scientific herp community will someday value the vast amount of knowledge hobbyists bring to the subject...