pacman not eating

[limnologist]

Hi, I have a 2-year old male brown pacman that just got out of "hibernation", he used to always eat anything he saw (including my hand), but now he has refused to eat anything for the past 2 months. he looks and acts perfectly healthy and isn't overweight or underweight. i tried heating up his cage to see if that would work, but it didn't. Ive been keeping herps and and many freshwater aquariums and can say ive had a lot of experience with these animals, but ive never run into a problem like this. any suggestions?

[Mentat]

I do not estivate my frogs; but they still slow down eating around 1/2-1/3 of normal during Winter. They have become more active the last couple weeks (located at Virginia Beach).

Two months without any food is a bit long if frog is active. Please answer the below posted questions to see if anything could be the cause, thank you !

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.
16. How old is the frog
17. How long have you owned him/her
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
20. How often the frog is handled
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

[limnologist]

1. 1-gal plastic shoebox. i breed them so i dont use large aquariums very often.
2. no other inhabitants.
3. 80%
4. 70-80 F
5. distilled or aquariums water, whatever i have on hand.
6. moist paper towels.
7. empty except for a hut that he uses occasionally.
8. i breed superworms, mealworms, waxworms, endlers guppies, earthworms, and mice. so he eats a variety of that.
9. calcium supplement on all foods (excluding earthworms)
10. natural sun mixed with a repti light
11. heat mat.
12. february 27
13. yes he passes but does not eat.
14. i will try to get a pic up.
15. hes perfectly fine. hes clean, clear eyed, isnt scared or stressed. i trained him to eat from my hand, but now he doesnt want to and he wont eat anything that walks in front of him.
16. 2 years as of april 3
17. 2 years
18. captive
19. he used to eat 3 times a week, his meal was usually 3 earthworms on tuesday, 5 mealworms and superworms on thursday, and 3 waxworms on saturday, with an occasional mouse every few weeks.
20. he isnt handled but he does recognize my hand
21. low
22. i clean the cage once a week.
btw, he is 4 inches long, 4 inches wide

[limnologist]

im not worried for his health because he is as bright and beautiful as ever, he just came out of the breeding season and isnt losing any weight. ive never run into a situation such as this in my studies though. so im very curious if anyone has any comments

[GrifTheGreat]

im not worried for his health because he is as bright and beautiful as ever, he just came out of the breeding season and isnt losing any weight. ive never run into a situation such as this in my studies though. so im very curious if anyone has any comments

Sometimes they fast for no apparent reason. It can be for various reasons. I would have a fecal exam done just incase though. Parasites and protozoa can put them off food.

[limnologist]

problem solved. I offered him bugs, then a mouse and he still wasnt interested until I put an american toad in the cage. now hes very full because the toad was a little bigger than half the size of the frog.

[GrifTheGreat]

problem solved. I offered him bugs, then a mouse and he still wasnt interested until I put an american toad in the cage. now hes very full because the toad was a little bigger than half the size of the frog.

You do realize that Bufo Americanus is poisonous right? If eaten it can kill your frog.

[Heatheranne]

Yikes! Closing my eyes, wishing I hadn't just read that. Lets hope he's okay. I would strongly advise against feeding any frogs toads of any species. Yes, they secrete toxins stored in their glands as protection from larger animals. Earthworms and Dubai roaches are much better choices.

[DVirginiana]

That's... Just a really bad idea. If your frog isn't even dropping weight or looking sick, you should never resort to dangerous feeders like that. These animals can go months without food in the wild.
Hopefully the toxins from the toad won't kill your frog. When two animals are so far apart geographically, the predator often has no defense against the toxic prey item. That's the reason Cane toads are such a problem in Australia. The only herps I know of that can eat Bufo americanus safely are garter, water, and hognose snakes that share range with the toads. Probably American bullfrogs too, but I've never seen any concrete data on those...

Even if you get lucky and the frog isn't harmed by the poison, frogs and toads are a bad idea since they carry parasites and other diseases that can easily pass to your frog.

[phibphan]

Hello All,
I have an adult pac man frog who has not eaten on his own for two months. I panicked and force fed him a few times, which I fear has stressed him out and made things worse. In the last month, we fed him a roach, a large nightcrawler, and a fuzzy. He tries to spit the food out.
Chomp is a year and a half old, and ate very well early on (crickets, roaches, worms and pinkies-two feedings a week). He is captive bred, and is handled about twice a week. At a year, he became picky and would eat nothing but mice. Now, he won’t eat at all, and has had no bowel movement in about a month. I give him soaks(spring water, room temperature) and massage his belly. He stays buried in his eco most of the time now, but will become active during soaks. I became alarmed today when I noticed more retained water than usual (puffy under chin and face). I took him out to soak, and he did not release any liquid as he usually does when soaking. I am worried that he may have a blockage! Because this is my first pac man frog, and my first adult year with him, I can’t tell if he needs to go to the vet or if I am just bothering him. Vivarium stats are as follows: Humidity is 80- 90,temp around 78 degrees,low uvb on a timer (12 hr shifts), a few inches of eco earth, shallow water dish with spring water, eco prepared with spring water and changed twice a month, misted regularly throughout the day, all items in tank rinsed/soaked with spring water before using or after cleaning, water changes every other day
The enclosure is near our dog’s bed, which I didn’t think about until you mentioned high/low traffic. He grew up around our dog, an never seemed bothered by it before, but I will try a move to see if there is a difference. To any that respond, I thank you in advance for your time.

[Hypnotic]

First off, don't be alarmed about him not pooping for a month, if he's not really eating, he probably doesn't need to poop. Check his right side, do you feel a hard lump?
Could you post a picture of the frog and the enclosure? If you force fed him he is probably going through alot of stress right now, my advise would be leave him alone for the time being, if he doens't have a hard lump, stop the soaks and try to resume your normal feeding schedule without being too worried. Also, please create your own topic, more people will come and check new topics out, so your chances of being helped will be increased!

[limnologist]

american toads arent deadly to other animals, they have unpleasant tasting toxins and if my pets were unhealthy it would make them sick, but they are very healthy, and he chose the toad so......
hes fine, he has eaten many before. many animals can safely eat Bufo Americanus. It's creatures like the Marine Toad that can kill other animals with the potency in its poison.

[limnologist]

Bufo Americanus is a common food item for many animals, a few being: The Bullfrog, Various Large Fish (bass, catfish, crappy), many birds (hawks, herons, crows), any snake that is big enough to eat a toad, and the occasional raccoon or opossum. Ive had my pacmans for a while, and the specimen in question is my favorite one because he is a picky, spoiled brat. lol. I offered him everything and he would only eat a toad.

[limnologist]

Once again, Im just saying, Ive been keeping Pacmans for years and have a lot of experience with herps and aquatics, Bufo Americanus DOES NOT harm Pacman frogs.

[Hypnotic]

Well, your right and your wrong limnologist. Theres nothing wrong with feeding a pacman frog frogs, however, isn't it an unnesecary risk your taking? Even if the poison is harmless as you say it is, what about the parasites?
I preffer to feed my frogs things that are more nutricious and aren't healthrisks. I really hope nothing happends to your frog, and your free to feed whatever you want to him, but personally, I don't take any risks when it comes to my animals.

[limnologist]

That's... Just a really bad idea. If your frog isn't even dropping weight or looking sick, you should never resort to dangerous feeders like that. These animals can go months without food in the wild.
Hopefully the toxins from the toad won't kill your frog. When two animals are so far apart geographically, the predator often has no defense against the toxic prey item. That's the reason Cane toads are such a problem in Australia. The only herps I know of that can eat Bufo americanus safely are garter, water, and hognose snakes that share range with the toads. Probably American bullfrogs too, but I've never seen any concrete data on those...

Even if you get lucky and the frog isn't harmed by the poison, frogs and toads are a bad idea since they carry parasites and other diseases that can easily pass to your frog.

Not only is the poison that Bufo Americanus posseses not dangerous to Pacmans, other amphibians are part of the pacman's diet. Even though the american toad is never naturally eaten by the pacman, the pacman is still built to eat other amphibians.

[limnologist]

Well, your right and your wrong limnologist. Theres nothing wrong with feeding a pacman frog frogs, however, isn't it an unnesecary risk your taking? Even if the poison is harmless as you say it is, what about the parasites?
I preffer to feed my frogs things that are more nutricious and aren't healthrisks. I really hope nothing happends to your frog, and your free to feed whatever you want to him, but personally, I don't take any risks when it comes to my animals.

I see what your saying, but I only have easy access to Toads (I breed them for selling to gardeners). And after years of keeping many animals, all were capable of eating the toads, I found it did no harm. However, I have nothing to say about other species of toads as I have never fed any other species to my pets. The best way to learn is to read and experiment, and that's what I did when I first thought of feeding toads to my pets.

[DVirginiana]

I'm glad the toad didn't harm your pac, but you're looking at potential harm from toxicity the wrong way. All the animals you mentioned that eat Bufo americanus evolved alongside them, and have systems that we KNOW can handle that type of toxin.

The toxicity of Bufo marinus isn't what leads to it being such a problem in Australia. There are dozens of snakes, lizards, and fish in its native habitat that can eat it an suffer no negative effects because they evolved ALONGSIDE it. Saying that it is a problem there because it is so much more toxic than Bufo americanus is to ignore the fact that it isn't potency, but evolutionary relationships that determine danger to predators.

Another example that I have seen personally involves garter snakes (which I raise). These are known to eat many amphibians, and are the only known animal that can safely consume fire newts. However, they cannot eat anything that has touched my pacman frog (I would occasionally offer them a pinkie she had refused). It will result in a regurge within the hour. This is a snake that can safely consume one of the most toxic amphibians on the planet, and they have adverse reactions to the toxins a pac produces, which are so mild humans don't even consider them an irritant (and why I didn't think anything about offering them something that had touched her).

Also, once again, I'm really glad for you and your frogs that this seems to work but promoting this strategy as a safe and effective way to 'experiment' with new food sources is just... incorrect. Unless you've done a detailed comparison between the proteins Bufo americaus produces and the proteins produced by ranids in the pacman's natural diet and found them to be highly similar, deciding to feed the toads to something outside their natural range is no more well-researched than tossing any random animal into the pac's tank and hoping it doesn't have adverse effects, since (to my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong) there is nothing in the actual literature regarding Bufo americanus as a feeder for horned frogs.
I respect your experience in husbandry (seriously, I do), but unless you have information you haven't shared with us, you just got lucky, because the 'methods' you described for determining this would be a safe feeder just don't add up.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this is kind of a pet peeve of mine... I totally understand that sometimes unsafe/unknown feeders are a necessary last resort. It's just that a blind stab at safe feeders shouldn't be touted as a safe and well-thought-out way to determine if something is a good feeder or not for hobbyists.

[limnologist]

I'm glad the toad didn't harm your pac, but you're looking at potential harm from toxicity the wrong way. All the animals you mentioned that eat Bufo americanus evolved alongside them, and have systems that we KNOW can handle that type of toxin.

The toxicity of Bufo marinus isn't what leads to it being such a problem in Australia. There are dozens of snakes, lizards, and fish in its native habitat that can eat it an suffer no negative effects because they evolved ALONGSIDE it. Saying that it is a problem there because it is so much more toxic than Bufo americanus is to ignore the fact that it isn't potency, but evolutionary relationships that determine danger to predators.

Another example that I have seen personally involves garter snakes (which I raise). These are known to eat many amphibians, and are the only known animal that can safely consume fire newts. However, they cannot eat anything that has touched my pacman frog (I would occasionally offer them a pinkie she had refused). It will result in a regurge within the hour. This is a snake that can safely consume one of the most toxic amphibians on the planet, and they have adverse reactions to the toxins a pac produces, which are so mild humans don't even consider them an irritant (and why I didn't think anything about offering them something that had touched her).

Also, once again, I'm really glad for you and your frogs that this seems to work but promoting this strategy as a safe and effective way to 'experiment' with new food sources is just... incorrect. Unless you've done a detailed comparison between the proteins Bufo americaus produces and the proteins produced by ranids in the pacman's natural diet and found them to be highly similar, deciding to feed the toads to something outside their natural range is no more well-researched than tossing any random animal into the pac's tank and hoping it doesn't have adverse effects, since (to my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong) there is nothing in the actual literature regarding Bufo americanus as a feeder for horned frogs.
I respect your experience in husbandry (seriously, I do), but unless you have information you haven't shared with us, you just got lucky, because the 'methods' you described for determining this would be a safe feeder just don't add up.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this is kind of a pet peeve of mine... I totally understand that sometimes unsafe/unknown feeders are a necessary last resort. It's just that a blind stab at safe feeders shouldn't be touted as a safe and well-thought-out way to determine if something is a good feeder or not for hobbyists.

Respect! lol.
I get what your thinking, Ive found out that bufo americanus toxins aren't deadly to pacmans and do not have adverse effects on them. It happened accidentally too! I was cleaning my toad cage and my pacman cage at the same time (my pacman doesnt try to get out) and one of the toads jumped and landed in front of the frog. The frog had him down in two bites! after that I monitered him for 4 months and nothing happened, he went dormant and then came into his breeding season. I was curious and fed it more toads ( mainly because I was so used to feeding toads to my pets) and it never was affected by the toxins. And trust me, after the toad was eaten, I did my research and found that both amphibians contain the same bufotoxin with very minute differences chemically, and of course the pacman doesnt have as potent of load of toxins as the toad. It might be this minute difference that bothers your snakes. However, because it had already eaten the toad, I figured I would document the effects, whether it was going to die or not. And that is what I did. Now, I know that my pacmans are perfectly fine eating the toads. In fact, the first one to eat a toad now prefers it over all other foods (except mice).

[DVirginiana]

Wish you had said that beforehand! Those are methods I actually can be on board with

I've just had a lot of conversations with people who will feed their reptiles really questionable things for no real reason other than curiosity. (That and I literally just took a break from tearing some new orifices in a research paper to check the frog forum... Guess I didn't switch modes!)