What is the BEST roach alternative for B.Dubia roaches?

[CJ PELCHER]

Contrary to a lot of the hype, dubia roaches are not an ideal feeder... The problem with dubia and a number of other roach species is that they store urates as a protien source. The highest levels of the urates are found in the males and the growing nymphs. In any case, these urates can impact a number of systems for the frogs..including causing fluid retention, kidney and joint damage... They are acceptable to use as an occasional item, but I strongly suggest not using them as a staple in any herp diet.
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-ED (DENDROBOARD)

[SCF]

Contrary to a lot of the hype, dubia roaches are not an ideal feeder... The problem with dubia and a number of other roach species is that they store urates as a protien source. The highest levels of the urates are found in the males and the growing nymphs. In any case, these urates can impact a number of systems for the frogs..including causing fluid retention, kidney and joint damage... They are acceptable to use as an occasional item, but I strongly suggest not using them as a staple in any herp diet.
.

Interesting, where was this information found?

[SCF]

and what is an ideal feeder?

[JeffreH]

and what is an ideal feeder?

There is no such thing.

VARIETY is key to any diet. Feeding a single prey item to any species that is not in itself a specialist will have negative effects with time. Staple feeders like Silkworms, crickets, solider fly larvae, and cockroaches are considered staples because they can be fed safely every single day. With that being said, it is still important to supplement the diet with additional food items to create as much nutritional diversity as possible.

In the tropics, where many of of herps come from, there is an obscene diversity of insect fauna. Most species are opportunistic and prey upon a wide variety of arthopods and we should try to simulate this as best as possible.

[CJ PELCHER]

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/foo...aple-food.html

[CJ PELCHER]

I concur with Jeff 100%!! DO NOT STICK TO ONE FEEDER!! You need to mix it up to give proper amounts of all nutrients. Otherwise i would stick to giving gutloaded crickets with calcium (WITH D3) and vitamin supplements.

[SCF]

Don't get me wrong Corey, i'm not disagreeing with you, i'm looking to enlighten myself further. Dendroboard is not a community of scientists preforming data analysis on a huge variety of feeder insects on a large amount of test species btw.

I just said this I believe two days ago:

Re: New baby adspersus. You know you love THEM!

I'll pm you a complete nutritional composition of feeder vertebrates. Night crawlers/crickets/dubias are three out of the hundred of thousands of acceptable staple insects to feed your captive bred frog. They are just more readily available.

Edit: you are not wrong in choosing your staples by any means, but there are just vast amounts of insects that are acceptable to feed out cb pets." - end quote.

[CJ PELCHER]

Don't get me wrong Corey, i'm not disagreeing with you, i'm looking to enlighten myself further. Dendroboard is not a community of scientists preforming data analysis on a huge variety of feeder insects on a large amount of test species btw.

I just said this I believe two days ago:

Re: New baby adspersus. You know you love THEM!

I'll pm you a complete nutritional composition of feeder vertebrates. Night crawlers/crickets/dubias are three out of the hundred of thousands of acceptable staple insects to feed your captive bred frog. They are just more readily available.

Edit: you are not wrong in choosing your staples by any means, but there are just vast amounts of insects that are acceptable to feed out cb pets." - end quote.

(I'm not sure who said this...but "A staple diet is not a very good diet") Just saying, I believe this and will stand by this phrase.
In a natural environment our beloved herps are not solely basing prey insects based on what species of food they are and what they look like or their nutritional value. They have variety. Some species prefer different items. They are not a koala bears, that solely base their nutrition on one species of plant for survival. For instance, tree frogs will prefer a moth or fly verses a cricket or worm. But they will still eat the cricket /roach because its put in front of them.

Perfect husbandry does not exist other than the wild. Give your herp a good variety, the results will be rewarding.

[nirotorin]

Well they say you learn something new every day, and it's true. I had no idea about the whole uric acid, protein, roach thing. I'll be feeding my roaches way less dog food and fish food from now on. Good thing I've always fed my animals a variety of insects.

[JeffreH]

http://extension.entm.purdue.edu/urb...ocs/8Kells.pdf

Abstract:
Nutritional status of German cockroaches from the field (HUD apartments) was estimated using uric acid content to measure
amount of protein consumed, and respiratory quotient (RQ) to measure fat and carbohydrate metabolized. Initial trials demonstrated
the stability of these two indicators as nymphal cockroaches grow and with timing of meals. Nutrient consumption (and presumed
availability) was estimated by comparing uric acid content and RQ of nymphal cockroaches collected from kitchens of HUD
apartments with those reared in the laboratory and provided a series of meridic diets. Uric acid content was linearly related to
percentage of dietary protein (y=6.2x232.07, r
2
=0.96) and RQ was linearly related to log10(% fat:% carbohydrate)
(y=20.148Log(x)+0.790, r
2
=0.68). Field-collected German cockroaches contained 10.9±7.7 to 22.9±5.1 µg/mg uric acid and RQ of
0.770±0.024 to 0.803±0.260. Comparatively, cockroaches provided rodent chow had greater uric acid content (125.1±9.6 µg/mg)
and RQ (0.878±0.022). Employing linear calibration and these regressions, diet consumed by German cockroaches in the field was
estimated at 7±3% to 9±3% protein and equivalent amounts of carbohydrates and fat as an energy source. German cockroaches in
the field consume less protein and carbohydrates, and more fat compared to those provided a standard laboratory diet such as rodent
chow. Diet available in the field is considered suboptimal, resulting in physiological stress; the biological implications of this stress
are discussed."

Summary: Field-collected cockroachs contained an average of 15µg/mg uric acid while those fed a dietary rodent chow had an average of 125µg/mg uric acid. Its all in the diet that the roaches are provided.


Good points to bring to public attention, Corey. It is important that people know to avoid excess protein in the diets of their feeder roaches for the safety of their pets. Sadly, this information is not very widespread past this forum.

[NialR35]

So in other words, all those care sheets/members saying roaches need to eat high protein cat/dog/fish food are wrong?

[CJ PELCHER]

Nail...you can have high protein diets for your roaches yes... not a problem...the problem is making roaches a STAPLE DIET and overloading your herp on high protein based foods. It has detrimental effects just like feeding TOO much calcium and vitamins. People will discover this sooner rather than later. Dubias are a great source of nutrition ...but too much of a good thing DOES and WILL carry bad effects.

[JeffreH]

Contrary to a lot of the hype, dubia roaches are not an ideal feeder... The problem with dubia and a number of other roach species is that they store urates as a protien source. The highest levels of the urates are found in the males and the growing nymphs. In any case, these urates can impact a number of systems for the frogs..including causing fluid retention, kidney and joint damage... They are acceptable to use as an occasional item, but I strongly suggest not using them as a staple in any herp diet.
.

I personally believe this is an issue with excessive protein in the diet. At some point in time, someone thought (for whatever reason) that cockroaches require a high protein diet. This information perpetuated in the interwebs and I recall many years ago Roach gutloads and various products boasting higher protein content. It seemed that higher protein leads to larger sized adults; but what is not accounted for is the fact that cockroaches are decomposers of detritus in most parts of the world...Carbon-heavy food product.

Excess protein in a cockroach diet leads to ketone production and uric acid buildup because they simply cannot process an abundance of protein. I've read that diets with <4% protein are ideal for Blatella germanica fitness. If cockroaches are fed a proper diet that is low in protein, the herps and the roaches benefit.

[SCF]

I personally believe this is an issue with excessive protein in the diet. At some point in time, someone thought (for whatever reason) that cockroaches require a high protein diet. This information perpetuated in the interwebs and I recall many years ago Roach gutloads and various products boasting higher protein content. It seemed that higher protein leads to larger sized adults; but what is not accounted for is the fact that cockroaches are decomposers of detritus in most parts of the world...Carbon-heavy food product.

Excess protein in a cockroach diet leads to ketone production and uric acid buildup because they simply cannot process an abundance of protein. I've read that diets with <4% protein are ideal for Blatella germanica fitness. If cockroaches are fed a proper diet that is low in protein, the herps and the roaches benefit.

So you are personally debunking this theory on B. Dubia not being an "ideal feeder" ?