So bummed

[Kurt]

I am so sorry about your cat.

Thanks everybody. This year I lost not only the Colorado River toad, but one of my tomato frogs, one of my adult red-eyes (thankfully not one of the breeders), two fire-bellied toads, all of my cave salamanders, and a barred tiger salamander. Snakes are so much easier and reptile medicine is so much more advanced than amphibian medicine.

I have seen the Thun Green Line when it first aired, but it is worth watching again, so I did. Next month I think I will buy the DVD.

[scribbles]

I am so sorry about your cat.

Thank you.

[Kurt]

You're welcome.

[John]

Sorry for everyone's losses.

[Kurt]

Thanks.

[SethD]

This year I lost not only the Colorado River toad, but one of my tomato frogs, one of my adult red-eyes (thankfully not one of the breeders), two fire-bellied toads, all of my cave salamanders, and a barred tiger salamander. Snakes are so much easier and reptile medicine is so much more advanced than amphibian medicine.[/COLOR]

Losses happen, but that does seem quite a lot to lose in one year unless your dealing with fresh imports that fail to become established in spite of best efforts. Were these long term captives that had been doing well? If so you must be having pretty bad luck. I am particularly surprised at the fbt's and the Colorado river toad as those are usually quite hearty and are not normally prone to disease when kept in suitable conditions(as I assume they were).

[Kurt]

The red-eye, barred tiger, and cave salamanders were all surprises that died rather suddenly. They were all some what long term captives.

The red-eye was always quite strange and was smaller than the others. I am thinking it may have had a genetic defect. I did hit his roommates with an anti-biotic just to be on the safe side. My two male red-eyes came in together in April 2008, the female the year before. The one that died was one of the males.

The barred tiger looked a lot like my other tiger which I am now treating. Sadly it died before I could get it to a vet. The blotched tiger is much more luckier in this respect. In the case of both tigers I suspect it may have something to do with substrate. I believe it needed cleaning, I know that was definitely the case with the blotched tiger. Yes- the substrate has been replaced. Last night's bath in a terbinafine hydrochloride bath loosened up a lot of dead skin. It kind of reminded me of when you soak a snake for a bad shed. It just came off in pieces. The barred tiger came into the collection last year sometime.

The cave salamanders died suddenly one after another over a period of three days. Even in death they looked fine. John, at the time, thought it may have to do with high temperatures, but checking thermometers in the room the average temperature was 70 F. I am not sure that was warm enough to kill them. I could be wrong. They came into the collection last June and been thriving up to that point.

The tomato frog that died was much smaller than the others. It stopped feeding and was separated from the others. It was on the weak side and I treated it with antibiotics, but still died. The next smallest tomato has become ill and was taken to the vet. It is now being treated with antibiotics and is being force fed. It has also started feeding on its own again. The other three tomatoes are fine, but I hit them with an antibiotic to be on the safe side.

The fire-bellies were long term captives. One of them became weak and felt soft, like it had no muscle tone. It was still eating at that point, but not as aggressively as the others. I treated it with an antibiotic but three days later it was dead. Then about a month or two goes by and I find the fire-belly I had since 2005 dead. No visible reason why. The other three seem fine at this point.

The Colorado River toad came down with edema and was brought to the vet immediately. The vet put it on an aggressive regiment using two antibiotics, SMZ and Batryl. The swelling went away and he was beginning to regain his energy and mobility. Then he suddenly died. I am wondering if it was all too much. The vet had never prescribed two antibiotics at the same time, nor to the frequency he told me to give them to the toad.

Right now, besides the blotched tiger (who is a very long term resident here) and the tomato frog, I am also treating and force feeding my western green toad, who has really thinned out. It's being treated with SMZ. I did put in fruit flies in the other night and when I went to treat him last night, they were gone. So maybe he has started to feed on his own once again.

My most recent acquisitions are a trio of bumble bee toads and a pair of red-backed rubber frogs, that I got a week ago last Sunday from LLL Reptile. They are in quarantine in the other room. Before that, the last animals to come into the collection came into the collection last October, they were a female blue-webbed flying frog and a barred tiger-salamander. Both of whom are doing fine. And before that it was a trio of northern two-lined salamanders, who are also fine.

[SethD]

The red-eye, barred tiger, and cave salamanders were all surprises that died rather suddenly. They were all some what long term captives.

The red-eye was always quite strange and was smaller than the others. I am thinking it may have had a genetic defect. I did hit his roommates with an anti-biotic just to be on the safe side. My two male red-eyes came in together in April 2008, the female the year before. The one that died was one of the males.

The barred tiger looked a lot like my other tiger which I am now treating. Sadly it died before I could get it to a vet. The blotched tiger is much more luckier in this respect. In the case of both tigers I suspect it may have something to do with substrate. I believe it needed cleaning, I know that was definitely the case with the blotched tiger. Yes- the substrate has been replaced. Last night's bath in a terbinafine hydrochloride bath loosened up a lot of dead skin. It kind of reminded me of when you soak a snake for a bad shed. It just came off in pieces. The barred tiger came into the collection last year sometime.

The cave salamanders died suddenly one after another over a period of three days. Even in death they looked fine. John, at the time, thought it may have to do with high temperatures, but checking thermometers in the room the average temperature was 70 F. I am not sure that was warm enough to kill them. I could be wrong. They came into the collection last June and been thriving up to that point.

The tomato frog that died was much smaller than the others. It stopped feeding and was separated from the others. It was on the weak side and I treated it with antibiotics, but still died. The next smallest tomato has become ill and was taken to the vet. It is now being treated with antibiotics and is being force fed. It has also started feeding on its own again. The other three tomatoes are fine, but I hit them with an antibiotic to be on the safe side.

The fire-bellies were long term captives. One of them became weak and felt soft, like it had no muscle tone. It was still eating at that point, but not as aggressively as the others. I treated it with an antibiotic but three days later it was dead. Then about a month or two goes by and I find the fire-belly I had since 2005 dead. No visible reason why. The other three seem fine at this point.

The Colorado River toad came down with edema and was brought to the vet immediately. The vet put it on an aggressive regiment using two antibiotics, SMZ and Batryl. The swelling went away and he was beginning to regain his energy and mobility. Then he suddenly died. I am wondering if it was all too much. The vet had never prescribed two antibiotics at the same time, nor to the frequency he told me to give them to the toad.

Right now, besides the blotched tiger (who is a very long term resident here) and the tomato frog, I am also treating and force feeding my western green toad, who has really thinned out. It's being treated with SMZ. I did put in fruit flies in the other night and when I went to treat him last night, they were gone. So maybe he has started to feed on his own once again.

My most recent acquisitions are a trio of bumble bee toads and a pair of red-backed rubber frogs, that I got a week ago last Sunday from LLL Reptile. They are in quarantine in the other room. Before that, the last animals to come into the collection came into the collection last October, they were a female blue-webbed flying frog and a barred tiger-salamander. Both of whom are doing fine. And before that it was a trio of northern two-lined salamanders, who are also fine.

Sounds like you may well have some sort of overall issue though no telling what it is. I can count on one hand the number of health problems I have had with long term captive amphibians over the years. Usually if you can get them to survive past 3-4 months they will be fine. In the collections of others the most common problems I have seen in LTC's tend to be a result of either a poor diet, poor or no supplementation, or keeping a frog to wet. I assume you know better than to have issues in these areas so I assume it is something else.


As you pointed out amphibian medicine isn't very advanced at this time so I thought I might mention a couple things that I have had some success with when dealing with unknown ailment in wc amphibians. First try lowering the temperatures quite a bit. How much is something of a finger in the wind affair and depends on how cold tolerant you believe the species to be. Within reason the colder the better if the species can handle it. If your lucky several weeks of reduced temperatures may produce a cure by itself and at any rate it often seems to give you more time to try different things. I don't know if this happens because of the amphibians lower metabolism in the cooler temperatures or if it gives the immune system some sort of edge during the fight but it can produce positive results at times. Another thing that is worth trying is keeping amphibians that are normally kept on the wet side a little drier and amphibians normally kept on the dry side side a little wetter for a while. This also sometimes produces positive results particularly when combined with cooler temperatures. I speculate this may be due to a less hospitable environment for the problem what ever it may be. I know this is something of a crude blind men and the elephant approach but that is where amphibian medicine is still at right now. About all most vets can do is get you frog safe antibiotics and fungicides and recommend dosages. If that works great but if not your usually on your own for the most part. If your effectively on your own you experiment, some things will work and some things won't, but remember in many cases guesswork is all the vet has to go on as well. That is why so much is often blamed on parasites or very generic things like "stress". As often as not it is just another way of saying I don't know. Amphibian medicine still has a long way to go but in the mean time we do what we can and experiment when necessary.

[Paul Rust]

I have to agree with you here Seth except that I don't think amphibian medicine is in as dire a situation as many may think. I too have lost very few animals over the past 25 or so years and when i do they go suddenly. I certainly wouldn't blame it on stress if they suvived for 3 or more months as you said and I doubt that Kurt, you or myself would blame parasites because that is easily proven and the possibility eliminated with a proper maintenance regime, by this I mean doing your own fecals so you know what is actually going on. I spend many hours reading books like Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, Understanding Reptile Parasites, and any other medical work I can find. All this combined with experience can give us a great advantage when trying to save our animals. But the truth is as you said, "we are on our own". At least we can share these experiences and learn from each other about what has worked and what hasn't. Your comments on reversing the natural climate for a while rings true in my experience also, I don't know why. Overall I think we are doing pretty good keeping our animals healthy given the lack of vet assistance that we have. Too make a long story even longer, I agree with you.

[Kurt]

Overall I think we are doing pretty good keeping our animals healthy given the lack of vet assistance that we have.

But there is still so much we don't know. Amphibian medicine is way behind reptile medicine and a lot herp vets can't give you the answers you need. Treating amphibians most of the time is an educated shot in the dark. When treating a reptile there is a 80% certainty that it will pull through, with amphibians its like 30%. (Those figures are just estimates, so don't quote me on them)

Its frustrating and every time I lose an animal I feel like a failure, because I feel I shouldn't be losing any. Maybe its because I have been doing this for a long time now. Maybe its because I have worked in a few museums with live animals and in the pet industry. Maybe its because every where I go, everyone knows me as the frog guy and its so frustrating that I don't have all the answers that they need. Yesterday I was asked about lung structure in frogs and I did not have the answer. Like I said everyone expects me to have the answers and I feel like a fraud when I don't. Sometimes I feel as dumb as a box of rocks and I am angry with myself for not knowing all the answers.


Wednesday, I will be going to the Museum of Science to discuss hypocalcemia in captive amphibians with my former boss, the curator of live animals. Hopefully it will be a productive meeting. I do plan on discussing as much as I can on the other topics brought up in this thread. Hopefully I will be walking out of there with some answers and hopefully I will be able to provide them with some too.

[freck]

sorry to hear about your loss

[Kurt]

Thanks, you have definitely given food for thought. One frog I have that is thriving and amazingly so is my dart frog. The reason why I believe is because he has the right enviroment for him. Its humid and filled with live plants, I think that makes all the difference in the world.

The tiger salamander enclosure was overly wet, and I believe that played a role in tis skin problem.

The trio of northern two lined salamanders are in an overly wet enviroment, but that how we found them. When we caught them they were living in seepage, so I have replicated that at home.

As far as diet is concerned, I feed the widest variety possible without wild collecting insects and I use supplements everytime I feed.