Al the Albino died :(

[reptileszz]

Hi all, I had been trying and trying to get Al the albino clawed frog to eat and he was eating maybe one piece of chopped earthworm every other day while Norm eats a ton and is 3 times as big.

This morning I found Al dead. He had been having some redness in various parts of him over the last couple of days and it was not "evenly distributed" anymore like it had been. I had attributed this redness to his albinism and that I could see the veins. I did take a couple of pics of him (dead) and wonder if I could post them here so someone could give me some insight as to what happened. I dont want to just post pictures of a dead frog as I dont want to be rude or disturbing to anyone. I could post a link to them if I put them somewhere else I guess.

Thank you.
Carole

PS The other normal frog seems just fine and is growing like a weed.

[Jenste]

Were they housed together or separately? I am quite concerned about the mentioned of redness - sounds like to fatal "Red Leg" which we frog lovers dread.

[mpmistr]

Hi all, I had been trying and trying to get Al the albino clawed frog to eat and he was eating maybe one piece of chopped earthworm every other day while Norm eats a ton and is 3 times as big.

This morning I found Al dead. He had been having some redness in various parts of him over the last couple of days and it was not "evenly distributed" anymore like it had been. I had attributed this redness to his albinism and that I could see the veins. I did take a couple of pics of him (dead) and wonder if I could post them here so someone could give me some insight as to what happened. I dont want to just post pictures of a dead frog as I dont want to be rude or disturbing to anyone. I could post a link to them if I put them somewhere else I guess.

Thank you.
Carole

PS The other normal frog seems just fine and is growing like a weed.

Hmm that sucks. I'm not sure what lead to the death, would need more information. A water quality test kit would like you know if there are bad conditions. The water conditions may be poor and the other frog just may be 'tougher' and carrying on.

Albino veins are usually very red and pronounced but red leg as Jeneste said, is very deady -- and contagious. It's a bacterial infection from bad conditions and compromises the frogs immune system enough to where a opportunistic bacterial infection sets in.

Pictures would not hurt, if it is actually red leg it may be good to know for sure, for the sake of your other frog.

[reptileszz]

Hi, I had heard of red leg before. I really hope that is not it. I tested the water for ammonia and it was completely clear. It is the only thing I have tested for so far. My water out of the tap is pretty hard. And I hear these guys like hard water. In the past 2 weeks I have done several major water changes whilst getting the rocks out of there. And I have an Eclipse system that I have changed the media out of 3x since I got the frogs mostly since there was a lot of debris kicked up getting the gravel out of there. In any case, here are 2 pics. I hope they are clear enough. I took them thru a zip lock bag I had put him in.

Thank you so much,
Carole

[Jenste]

To be honest I cannot tell based on the pictures. Do you have a photo of the underneath side of the frog?

I will however jump in regarding something you mentioned - - you said you keep changing your filter media. I really recommend you not do this.

Have you researched cycling a tank? Your filter media is the most important thing in your tank - it holds the bacteria colony that you want and need to break down ammonia into nitrite then into nitrate. Throwing away the media means you throw away the colony and you are left with a filter doing nothing more than making bubbles in your tank.

Please, start googling the nitrogen cycle. Filter media should never be changed. When you are doing water changes, just swish it around in a bucket of dirty water if it has excessive build up on it but do not let it come in contact with fresh, unconditioned/untreated water. Chlorine kills bacteria. If you even have media that is breaking down and needs to be replaced, do so in stages. I prefer using media balls/bio balls as part of my filtration for this reason.

[reptileszz]

I know about cycling. It is 2 stage filter. I didn't change the biowheel. Just the carbon and flossy stuff

[mpmistr]

Hi, I had heard of red leg before. I really hope that is not it. I tested the water for ammonia and it was completely clear. It is the only thing I have tested for so far.

Really must test for Nitrite and Nitrate. Nitrite is even more toxic than Ammonia. Water clarity has not much to do with water quality, it's a non factor actually. Are you using a liquid test kit? Strips are not accurate. I would pick up a Freshwater API Liquid Test kit, it's incredibly useful and well worth having.

My water out of the tap is pretty hard. And I hear these guys like hard water.

The waters they hail from in Africa are hard, I've also read for optimal health, hard and basic (alkaline) water is best. That being said Xenopus are incredibly adaptable and do fine in a pH of 6.5 to 7.5.

In the past 2 weeks I have done several major water changes whilst getting the rocks out of there. And I have an Eclipse system that I have changed the media out of 3x since I got the frogs mostly since there was a lot of debris kicked up getting the gravel out of there.

Water changes are good but too many could mess the cycling process up (or at the very least retard the process), were you cycling this aquarium? It's very rough on frogs if so, they are very sensitive to Ammonia/Nitrite.

Also when you said you changed out the media, that right there is not good. The filter media is actually where the vast majority of your beneficial bacteria propagate; that is the bacteria that breaks down your highly toxic Ammonia/Nitrite into a much safer Nitrate. You actually want to almost never replace filter media, the only reason the instructions say to replace it is because the company makes money if you do.. you actually just want to take the filter media and rinse it off in a bucket of aquarium water and then place it back in the filter. Replacing this media is basically restarting your cycling process, not good!

In any case, here are 2 pics. I hope they are clear enough. I took them thru a zip lock bag I had put him in.

I've never had a frog with red leg, but that looks like red leg. If anyone else would like to chime please do but that does look like a bacterial infection. :/

Sorry he did not make it. I think getting your aquariums nitrogen cycle established is going to be key in ensuring your other frog survives.

[mpmistr]

I know about cycling. It is 2 stage filter. I didn't change the biowheel. Just the carbon and flossy stuff

Here's what I would do. I would stop replacing any filter media! I know some people like biowheels but I am not convinced they are useful. Marineland products are pretty 'meh..' to me. I would not count on the biowheel to preserve your bacteria, hell two of the Marineland filters I've owned the biowheel never even spun correctly or with any consistency. The flossy stuff is actually what is holding the good bacteria, at least the vast majority of it.

Second thing is carbon is useless (seriously 100% useless in modern aquaria, becomes inert after a few months..). If you can find filter media that is simply sponge based to hold bacteria/detritus you will be better off (again not a fan of Marineland).

Pick up some SeaChem Prime, it is my favorite water conditioner. It's very concentrated (a little bit goes a long way) and it has the extra benefit of converting Ammonia into a much less toxic Ammonium, that should take some stress off your frog until your cycle is complete. Also pick up some Stress Coat by API, it's another excellent product for your frogs slime coat (which protects it from infection).

If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

[reptileszz]

Hi thank you for all the replies. I hope my water is not too bad. I used stress coat with the water changes. I am in petsmart now. Getting seachem prime. Not seeing nitrite test kit. I have one at home but it is like 10 yrs old. Thinking Ineed a new one. My biowheel spins a lot and there is a bunch of algae stuff stuck to the edges of the tubing and where the water comes out. Am hoping my bio filtration is ok. Will stop changing media. Thought it needed to be done for the carbon and it is one piece in this filter wondering about these seachem alerts? It monitors levels? Getting the prime and going to another store for nitrite tester. Strips bad Iguess.

Thank you!

[mpmistr]

You want the API Freshwater Master Kit (liquid test kit), it has tests for pH, pH (High Range), Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate. This contains every test you really need.

Don't know too much about SeaChem Alerts, possibly a gimmicky product. No experience there, sorry.

Liquid tests = good and Strips = bad. Scientific water testing is best but expensive.

Once you know the water parameters you'll have a good idea of what is going on in your tank.

[reptileszz]

OK sorry for my recent brevity. I was out at the stores on my cell. So here's what I did. I was at petsmart and the master test kit was $32.99. I didn't have that much and it seemed pricey. And there was no nitrite kit. I went to the local exotic fish store where the master kit was $36.99 and the nitrite kit was $11.99. I was like geez. Went outside and looked it up on amazon and bought it right then and there for 19.99 free 2 day shipping. So it will be here Tues or Wed. I figured I could use my old nitrite tester kit and see what happened for now. So I get home and I have the test solution but no card to compare it to. Great. So I did the test anyway and figured maybe I could describe the color. Well I found the card online and since my solution is a nice light blue I assume I have 0 parts per whatever. Yay! Granted its old solution with no exp. date on it. But that must be a good indicator...

To better describe my "major water changes"... About 4 weeks ago when I brought the frogs home. I did a quick vacuum, sucking out about 1/4 of the water or less. A week later I did the same thing. 1/4 of the tank. A week later I did what I would call the major water change, when I got the gravel out of there. I would say I replaced about 60% of the water, using stress coat with all the new water. In there somewhere I changed the filter cartridge which is one piece with carbon inside surrounded by floss. My bio wheel spins like crazy after I change that. I thought I had to change it to get the carbon in there. Lesson learned. Certainly cheaper to wash it in old water and put it back in. But it will get gummed up at some point and have to be replaced I assume. I have a pretty good growth of brownish "stringy" algae that hangs out of the tubes where the water comes out of the filter and assume it is all inside there as well. I thought the bio wheel was supposed to be the thing that kept the good bacteria and whatnot...

So it seems my nitrites and ammonia levels are really good. Al never ate well right out of the chute, not like Norm, so I wonder if there was something wrong with him to start with? I am going to google pics of red leg and see what that looks like. It seems odd this was on one leg but I really dont know anything about it.

Thank you so much for your help!
Carole and Norm

[mpmistr]

OK sorry for my recent brevity. I was out at the stores on my cell. So here's what I did. I was at petsmart and the master test kit was $32.99. I didn't have that much and it seemed pricey. And there was no nitrite kit. I went to the local exotic fish store where the master kit was $36.99 and the nitrite kit was $11.99. I was like geez. Went outside and looked it up on amazon and bought it right then and there for 19.99 free 2 day shipping. So it will be here Tues or Wed. I figured I could use my old nitrite tester kit and see what happened for now. So I get home and I have the test solution but no card to compare it to. Great. So I did the test anyway and figured maybe I could describe the color. Well I found the card online and since my solution is a nice light blue I assume I have 0 parts per whatever. Yay! Granted its old solution with no exp. date on it. But that must be a good indicator...

$36.99 is highway robbery, a lot of things at Petsmart and really most LFS are overpriced. Amazon.com is your friend here, that is where I purchased my API FW Kit.. for $19.99. Most LFS will test your water for free (this way they can give you a limited 'warranty' on your fish purchases).

To better describe my "major water changes"... About 4 weeks ago when I brought the frogs home. I did a quick vacuum, sucking out about 1/4 of the water or less. A week later I did the same thing. 1/4 of the tank. A week later I did what I would call the major water change, when I got the gravel out of there. I would say I replaced about 60% of the water, using stress coat with all the new water. In there somewhere I changed the filter cartridge which is one piece with carbon inside surrounded by floss. My bio wheel spins like crazy after I change that. I thought I had to change it to get the carbon in there. Lesson learned. Certainly cheaper to wash it in old water and put it back in. But it will get gummed up at some point and have to be replaced I assume. I have a pretty good growth of brownish "stringy" algae that hangs out of the tubes where the water comes out of the filter and assume it is all inside there as well. I thought the bio wheel was supposed to be the thing that kept the good bacteria and whatnot...

Algae really isn't a bad thing, but its often an indicator of a nutrient imbalance. In of itself algae is mostly harmless and all tanks in some way or another, have algae present. Biowheels are gimmicks, it's supposed to give another surface for the good bacteria to grow but there's no real hard proof. I am not a fan of 'hang on the back' filters to begin with, I really am partial to canister filters which have biological and mechanic filtration (and no worthless carbon). Look online for an Eheim 2217 or similar, great filters and highly recommended.

So it seems my nitrites and ammonia levels are really good. Al never ate well right out of the chute, not like Norm, so I wonder if there was something wrong with him to start with? I am going to google pics of red leg and see what that looks like. It seems odd this was on one leg but I really dont know anything about it.

What is really good Ammonia/Nitrite levels? The only acceptable levels are zero. Everything else is toxic and stressful to a frog. Your frog may have been sick to begin with, there's no way to really know. I purchased a few zebra danio for one of my tanks (and obviously wasn't paying attention) a while back and they all had bent spines or some kind of crazy deformity, it happens. Always best to quarantine because you just never know.

Thank you so much for your help!
Carole and Norm

You're welcome.

[reptileszz]

So it seems my nitrites and ammonia levels are really good. Al never ate well right out of the chute, not like Norm, so I wonder if there was something wrong with him to start with? I am going to google pics of red leg and see what that looks like. It seems odd this was on one leg but I really dont know anything about it.

Thank you so much for your help!
Carole and Norm

Replying to my own reply, yes. I found a nitrAte test kit here as well. Similar age and have done that. The nitrAtes look to be either in the 40 or 80 range, possibly higher. The red is pretty red in the vial... The instructions say 40 or less is good. I need to figure out how to lower the nitrates it seems. Interestingly the instructions also say that nitrates rise after the biological filter becomes established. Maybe that means I didnt screw up the cycling!

Thanks again,
Carole

[mpmistr]

Replying to my own reply, yes. I found a nitrAte test kit here as well. Similar age and have done that. The nitrAtes look to be either in the 40 or 80 range, possibly higher. The red is pretty red in the vial... The instructions say 40 or less is good. I need to figure out how to lower the nitrates it seems. Interestingly the instructions also say that nitrates rise after the biological filter becomes established. Maybe that means I didnt screw up the cycling!

Thanks again,
Carole

That's actually really high, the good news is your tank is cycling ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate however over 20ppm is very high, toxic. Frogs are especially sensitive to nitrate, try to get it down to the 5ppm to 10ppm range.

Water changes will lower nitrate. I would do 50% partial water changes daily until it levels out.

[reptileszz]

OK, just did like a 15% water change. First I tested my tap water and that is only like 5% nitrate thankfully. I was envisioning having to buy special water. Yikes. Or carting it over from someone else's house LOL. Then I came here and see that 50% is more like it. OK off I go. I am testing it again and it doesnt look good. Does anyone know if you have to shake the #2 solution for 30 seconds every time if you are doing test after test? All of this shaking is killing me hehe.

Thanks again,
Carole

[mpmistr]

What reading do you get on your tap for nitrate (in parts per million - ppm)? If you're doing the API FW Nitrate test kit, you need to add 10 drops to the vial and slosh it around a bit then shake the #2 bottle like crazy! I mean hit it against counters shake it for as long as you can, then add 10 drops. Slosh it around and let it mix together, then read it 5 minutes later. Try not to wait longer because you may get a bad result.

[reptileszz]

The tap water was in the 5 ppm area. It wasnt 0 unfortunately. I did 10 more gallons (This is a 29 gallon tank) so we are at about 50% for today. I think it looks a little better. We might be in the 20ppm area but it could be a little bit over. The tank is full. I could do another 5 gal and see what happens? Or is that too much for one day? I go by the 5 gal cause that is what my bucket is. All my working out with the kettlebells is paying off now. Carrying water around the house is easier than it ever was. hehe

I cannot thank you enough for all your help!
Carole

[mpmistr]

I'd just do 50% every day until it stabilizes, once you're under 20ppm you can just do weekly water changes.