Grey Tree Frog tadpoles (I hope!) and some questions

[dfreas]

A couple of weeks ago when I was filling my pool the local frog community decided to descend in force! So the next day as I was skimming off all of the eggs I thought, "I bet the kids would enjoy watching some tadpoles turn into frogs..." So I took a handful of eggs and dropped them in a mason jar with some water not really expecting much.

Two days later I had tadpoles. Luckily I've been keeping aquariums for years so I had pretty much everything I needed. I set up the tadpoles in a 5.5 gallon tank with a sponge filter and a ton of java moss and started researching the types of frogs in my area to figure out what I had. My state's department of game and inland fisheries lists 28 species of frog/toad known to live in my state, of those only 13 have been observed in my county. I was able to further eliminate everything that requires a permanent large body of water (bullfrogs for instance) since the nearest water is a creek you can jump over 1/4 mile from the house, that left 8 possibilities. I eliminated 1 more because it lays eggs in strings not clumps, and two more whose tadpoles have dorsal rather than lateral eyes and another one that does not have a visible intestinal coil. That left only three possibilities (well, two really) either a Grey Tree frog (or the similar Cope's Grey), or an Upland Chorus Frog. Unfortunately the easiest identifying attribute for both of these tadpoles (red tails for the Grey, and a black tail tip for the Chorus) only develop in the presence of predators which obviously they don't have in my current setup. Still, based on the pictures I've seen online I suspect that what I have is a Grey Tree Frog. It also helps that I have seen several adult Grey Tree Frogs on my property this spring, so I know they are around.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone with experience raising these guys if they think my identification is accurate or not. Hopefully I attached the pictures correctly.

They love feeding on the java moss (or more accurately the algae that grows on it's surface) and I've been supplementing that with spirulina algae pellets. I've also offered them some sinking aquatic frog pellets, but they just ignore those. They are developing quickly though so the spirulina + java moss/algae seem to be sufficient.

I've also started cultures of Hydei fruit flies and bean beetles to have for them once they turn into froglets. That also hasn't been much of a challenge since it is similar to raising live food for my aquariums (and is actually where the surplus fruit flies are going for now). I'd like to avoid crickets and I'd be interested in the opinions of other owners on if that is possible or not. Raising crickets is a pain - I tried it once about a decade ago, they stink, they escape, they are annoyingly loud. I just don't want them. I'm happy to raise the flies and the beetles, and am considering also raising isopods, worms, and spring tails. Will this be enough variety to maintain a few Grey Tree Frogs or am I going to have to deal with crickets?

Anyway, happy to hear opinions and suggestions. I'll also probably be posting my progress in a separate thread as I convert my 56 gallon tall aquarium (24hx30wx18d) into a palludarium to house these guys in the future.

[dfreas]

Well, I'm much more confident in my identification today. Last night we had a big thunderstorm that really soaked everything. After the rain stopped last night the frogs were out again in force and I noticed dozens of them all around the pool. Went outside with a flashlight and the little guys let me walk right up to them, pick them up, ID them, and put them back. Amazingly tame little guys, they don't make any attempt at all to jump away and seem perfectly content to sit in my hand until I put them back where they were.

Anyway, there must have been at least 30 Grey Treefrogs around my pool and they seemed to be the only species there. Probably more in the yard. I knew we had them on the property because I had seen two or three of them this spring, but I had no idea we had so many!

[dfreas]

The first one got front legs at some point last night! The other 8 still don't have them, but I can tell a few are ready to pop out soon. I set up a second 5 gallon tank next to the first and put it on a slant so the floor is half water half dry and transferred this guy over.

Question: according to the Gray Tree Frog Care and Breeding Guide posted here in this forum this little guy won't be eating anymore until the tail is gone. At what point should I start adding fruit flies to his tank? Just wait until the tail is completely gone, or sooner than that? And how long does tail absorption take? I was expecting his back to get a brighter green about this time...it's definitely greener than it was, but it's more of an olive color than bright green. Will it brighten up in a day or two, or is there a lot of variation in these frogs?

Thanks!

[dfreas]

Well, since no one ever answered any of the questions I asked I guess I'll go ahead and answer them now in case someone finds this thread in the future and has a similar situation.

First off, yes they are gray tree frogs.

And yes, there is a huge amount of variation in how green the tadpoles get when they get all four legs. Some turn bright green right away, others stay completely gray.

Tail absorption varies quite a bit from frog to frog, but generally seems to take in the 3-4 day range. Once the fins of the tail disappear the frog is pretty much ready to come out of the water so if all that is left of the tail is the central line and the frog isn't making any attempt to get to land you may want to push him up to the edge of the water line so he gets some air and maybe gets the idea to get out. I lost one frog to drowning because he never made any attempt at all to get out of the water. After that I watched them more closely and "encouraged" any that didn't seem to be getting out on their own when the time came.

Sinking spirulina pellets sold at any pet store are perfect food for the tadpole stage and don't really foul the water much if they don't get eaten right away. Hydei fruit flies are perfect for the newly formed frogs and very easy to culture.

As for an alternative to crickets I decided to go with green banana roaches. They stay relatively small for a roach, have soft bodies, and don't look gross. Plus they won't make a ton of noise or smell horrible like crickets would and any escapees will die in a day or two since the local environment is not suitable for them. Seems like the perfect feeder to me. It'll be a while before I need them but I went ahead and ordered everything I need to set up a colony anyway so they'll be ready when the time comes.

[KayJoh]

Its such a shame that you never had anyone reply to your post. I have put several posts on and not had any replies, its very frustrating. I haven't had my frogs (whites tree frogs) all that long, I'm a beginner with frogs and I really value any help. Sometimes there are questions that you just cant find answers to on the internet and need the help of someone with experience but saying that as you said you seem to have worked it all out yourself. But anyway, your little tadpoles are look as though they are doing great. I used to love watching tadpoles change into frogs as a child.
I love the picture of the little froggie with all its 4 legs, so cute.
I found your post really interesting.
Just wish we had more frogs native to the UK, I think we have only got about three types here and I have only ever seen one type and common toads.
Did you release them or keep them?
I am hoping to get a couple of grey tree frogs at some point in the future.
These frogs seem to be addictive, I love them, such little characters.

[dfreas]

I still have them for now. I intend to keep at least some as pets - probably no less than 4, and may end up keeping all of them depending on how it goes. If I do decide to release some of them it probably won't be for at least another month or so. I want to be sure that any I do release have a very good chance of survival. Right now they are in a 5.5 gallon aquarium with a pothos plant and eating hydei fruit flies and bean beetles. I dust their food regularly with rep-cal vitamin and calcium supplements and they seem to be doing very well. A couple of the last to develop are still a little clumsy and often miss their prey, but the faster developers are starting to act more and more like adult frogs. In another couple weeks when I'm confident they are all capable hunters I will move them over into my 56 gallon aquarium that I'll be converting to a palludarium. For now, I'm keeping them in the smaller tank so I can keep a close eye on them and make sure everyone is eating. Attached a couple of photos that I just took - they seem to like to hang out together.

[KayJoh]

Thanks for sharing those photos, I love that first picture the way the little grey one looks like he's landed with his legs all over the place. Quite surprised by the colour difference of them both.
They're so sweet.

[dfreas]

Yeah, the color changes are quite surprising. I knew they could change, but I didn't think it would be such a difference. A couple of them almost always stay green - like the green one in that first picture, I don't think I've ever seen that one any other color than how it looks in that photo, but most of them swing back and forth between gray and green. The pale colored one in the second photo is about as light as they get but they can really do a lot of colors in between. Dark grays and browns, olive green, and sometimes all pale with a green spot right in the middle of their back - I suspect that happens when I catch them mid change.

[KayJoh]

I'm so excited, I have been wanting grey tree frogs for so long but there has been none available in absolutely ages. After talking to you and reading your posts it has just made me want them even more and just yesterday I was looking on a website that I bought one of my whites tree frogs from and they have just advertised grey tree frogs. They are an absolutely fantastic company, they really care about the animals that they sell and their animals are delivered very carefully packaged and are very healthy. I have ordered 2 so today I went out and bought them a lovely big vivarium. They will be going into a quarantine tank first of all but I am going to set up their tank as a bioactive set up and that will be cycling while they are being quarantined. They should arrange delivery for next Thursday.
I have really enjoyed reading about your babies and can't wait to get mine now.

[dfreas]

Awesome! My wife fell in love with them just seeing them in the back yard - we had one in particular that decided to take up residence in the collapsible shade umbrella on our deck. Every day she would go out and see if he was still there and for about two weeks he lived there (he left when the days got really hot). When I collected the eggs we were both really hoping they would turn out to be greys for that reason but since we had only seen a few of them around at that point I figured it would be more likely that we would get an american toad or a chorus frog which are both very common here as well. She was thrilled when they started developing and matched all the pictures I could find of grey tadpoles. Now that we're sure, I've been working on setting up a more permanent place for them. I also plan on doing a bioactive setup - that's how I've always done my freshwater aquariums, with heavy loads of plants and invertebrates with relatively few fish, so doing the same thing for the frogs just makes sense. I'm working on my isopod cultures now and getting the lighting and substrate in the tank just right. It takes a long time to do it right, but it's worth it in the long run. I've had bioactive fishtanks that I've run for years without changing the water or cleaning them at all and the water always tested perfect. Hopefully I'll be able to do the same for the frogs.

[EtTuBrute]

It's too bad I didn't find this thread sooner! When I raised up my baby treefrogs I made a lot of notes. It's so great to see more people falling in love with these guys - they are such characters and I love them dearly.

Here's an album about raising mine:
https://imgur.com/gallery/prDZi

And here's an album of the froglets:
https://imgur.com/gallery/26xak

One thing I might be able to help you with is sexing them. I couldn't find any documentation on how long out of the water they had to be before you could identify the males. For me, it took 2-3 months out of the water before the males started chirping.

[dfreas]

It's too bad I didn't find this thread sooner! When I raised up my baby treefrogs I made a lot of notes. It's so great to see more people falling in love with these guys - they are such characters and I love them dearly.

Here's an album about raising mine:
https://imgur.com/gallery/prDZi

And here's an album of the froglets:
https://imgur.com/gallery/26xak

One thing I might be able to help you with is sexing them. I couldn't find any documentation on how long out of the water they had to be before you could identify the males. For me, it took 2-3 months out of the water before the males started chirping.

Those are great albums. It was interesting to read some of the struggles you had from never having raised fish before - learning the nitrogen cycle, testing water parameters, etc. I'm impressed that you were so patient with cycling the tank - and that you thought to get a used filter from a friend! Most people don't realize how important that is until it's too late. I definitely agree with you that certain frogs have preferred colors, I've noticed that too. Some change back and forth all the time, but I have a few that have preferred shades and they almost never change regardless of what background they are sitting on.

Thrilled to hear that yours chirp! I wasn't sure if they would do that or not in captivity. Sounds like I just need to wait another month or so before they start. Thanks for sharing this!

[KayJoh]

Well I got my two little grey tree frogs and when I say little I mean little. One is 3cm and the other is 2cm , he's tiny. I wasn't expecting them to be that small when I ordered them so I had to make a quick dash to the store to get some appropriate sized food. It seems so strange to see these little tiny ones after only ever having 4 inch whites tree frogs.
They are doing great so far and the smaller one of the two is a little piggy, he hurls himself at his food, its so funny to watch. The bigger one of the two stay a very light creamy grey colour. The smaller one is more grey with some black markings on him. I would take some pictures but just can't get any , the camera on my phone doesn't take very good photos.
I was just wondering if either of you would have a rough estimate of age at those sort of sizes?

[KayJoh]

EtTuBrute, I just had a look through your albums, they are really interesting.
I don't know if it is just me looking in the wrong places (to purchase) but it seems to me that here in the UK the grey tree frogs are not all that easy to come by very often.
Whites tree frogs are everywhere but this is the first time I have been able to get hold of these frogs in over a year and a half. Its a shame because they are beautiful little frogs.
Really enjoyed reading through about your journey with the tadpoles and the pictures are great.

[dfreas]

I was just wondering if either of you would have a rough estimate of age at those sort of sizes?

Hard to say much based on sizes really - they seem to develop at widely different rates. While I've never mail ordered a frog I have mail ordered chickens before and industry standard practice for shipping baby chicks is to ship them the day they hatch because for the first 48 hours they don't eat while they absorb the remainder of the yolk. I wouldn't be surprised if the frog industry does something similar. Since the frogs don't need to eat while the tail is absorbed that may be the best time to ship them so they don't starve if the mail is delayed. If that's the case there is a good chance your frogs have just finished absorbing their tails. The first meal you gave them may well have been the first meal they ate as frogs.

On the other hand these guys really don't seem to gain a lot in length at the beginning. So while mine were probably about 2cm when they finished absorbing their tails it's now 3 weeks later and most of them are still under 3cm. They are much thicker than they were at first and their muscles and body shape have developed quite a lot, but length gain has been fairly minimal.

Hope this helps - and congratulations on your new frogs!

[KayJoh]

Thanks for taking the time to go over that, I guess the age is just something I will never know, just glad I finally found some.

[KP]

I'm another who just came to this forum after joining it a year or more ago and not getting replies much haven't been on since. Also been too busy in general, but I'm glad to have stumbled upon this thread.

Since 2009 I've been helping the local Gray community thrive with my pool as their yearly spawning ground.
I'd have gladly tried to answer your many good questions if I'd found your posts earlier.

Anyway nice to find others who actually care for these cute, sticky little gremlins.

Starting in 2015 I began to get a lot more technical in my efforts to make the property increasingly welcoming for the 2 Toad specs and the Gray and Wood Frogs who use the pool cover spring pond for spawning. Before I take the cover off I get all the tadpoles off and enough leaves that fall onto it the previous fall as I can and set them up in what I call "nursery pods" with the same water they hatched in on the pool cover. In 2016 I started counting every single froglet that crawled out of the water of the pods and distributing them around the 1.75 acre plot. I counted 3,500 Micro-toads (toadlets) of the American and Fowlers Toads and stopped counting after that. That count didn't include all the ones that crawled off the cover before and after I started gathering them up to prvent the huge die off from the blisteringly hot pool cover plastic. After that period the cover came off and that year I accounted for 109 Gray Tree Froglets.

I had no intention at all of harboring any of them when I started and I stuck to that until I found one with a badly deformed leg that couldn't jump well at all and would have been a snack right out of the chute. So I kept that one and that's the first one I raised. He only stayed for 2 years and one night in his second spring he was playing in the pool cover pond with his relatives and he was taken by an owl!

There's more to that story and I went one year without domesticating any but their numbers have increased dramatically each year since I started keeping track of them.
Seven adults and a few "Junior Mints" as I call the pint-sized ones that stick around past morphing maintain residence on the house with another dozen or so adults in the trees and shrubs around the pool. During the spring spawns they're joined by at least another dozen who come from farther trees and shrubs probably within 100 yards or so.

Last year I found 4 with malformations, one of which was also very anemically colored and unusually small. I domesticated all 4.

To house them I started with all 4 in a 5.5 gal. tank and fed them fruitflies. Then they moved into a 10 gal., then into a 55 gal., then I put the 2 bucks in a 75 gal. and the 2 does stayed in the 55. They eventually all ended up in the 75 gal. tank where they are now and seem pretty happy. One of the does is completely dominant to one buck and her and the other buck are in a power struggle as I type this. The smallest one's the other doe and she's so deformed she can't climb like the others so she stays in her own level of the tank and the others each seem to visit her, and snuggle with her but never act in any competitive manner toward her, they seem like they're concerned for her and she seems to appreciate their company in demonstrable ways. She lightens her color when she gets a visit from them.

OK, I've rambled on enough. Good to read your accounts and hope to read more from you and other Gray Tree Frog people here.
I have a few videos of the frog and toad community on my property in this playlist here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...8f46gZXD7Bq3FD

[KP]

Same here. Just glad to read about people's Grays, and such recent posts.

Some of my observations on sexing them using the chirping calls of the bucks:
Even before they're able muster any sound you can see their throats turn black. That's the organ that enables the bucks to chirp. Also well before they'll be able to make any sound they'll practice expanding the skin of their throats while they seem to be sleeping. You'll see them looking like they're growing a double chin or even a small balloon, but that can happen a month or more before they'll make the slightest partial chirps. One of my bucks didn't start practicing making a sound until he was 6 months old and only a full year of age is he able to do one at about half volume and duration of the other one who started practice day chirping at about 6 weeks and chirped like a boss every night of this years second spawning period.

[KayJoh]

(KP) wow , you have worked hard to help all those little tiny babies. I loved reading your post. It made me laugh that you called them sticky little gremlins, I have a Whites tree frog called gizmo.
That was so sad that the owl got your frog, nature can be cruel but I suppose the owl was just doing what was natural, but sad all the same.
As I mentioned in my previous post we don't have many species of frogs here in the uk, the only place I ever see frogs is in a little pond that my mum has in her garden. Its only a little 4 foot pond that was there when she moved into her house but every year there is a ton of spawn in there and a couple of months later there are hundreds of tiny baby frogs leaping around, she loves it.
I think from what you have said that my bigger grey tree frog baby could potentially be a male, he has a cute little double chin when resting, sometimes it looks bigger than others.

[KP]

(KayJoh) Gizmo. There ya go. Sticky little gremlins. My first little nugget was named Henry by my mum. In his second spring after his tadpole year, I let him play on the pool cover with his community as it's only a few feet from the house and he was easy to keep track of at night with a spotlight even from across the pool because of his very crooked leg. He cut a distinct wake when he swam too so I never lost track of him when I was out watching him play with his extended community family. It got so that I could leave him for much of the night and go out and just locate him easily and grab him up when I had to go to bed. He got to where I'd open my window and set him on the window sill and he'd jump off and make his way to the pool cover pond on his own easily. One night he followed some early-to-bed frogs and ended up spending the rest of the night and the entire next day until twilight experiencing the wild frog life and of course I was sick as I thought I'd lost him for good. I went out to the pool when the gang had come down from the house and trees and shrubs to take their positions around the pond to start the nightly chorus and I started lookng for him and he was one of the first ones I saw in the water. I let him stay for the chorus that night but took him back in before it got very late and the temperature dropped enough to start them returning to their hideouts. That was a very unsettling 36 hours.

The next year Henry was doing great and we were back to our spring spawn chorus routine with his big family and one night I went to bring him back in and the funny thing about him was that when he was ok about leaving he'd crawl directly into my hand when I put it flat, palm up in front of him and if he wanted to stay longer he'd get real flat and clearly not want to go yet. So one night he flattened out when I offered him a ride back inside the house so I thought, ok, you can have 20 more minutes. After about 10 minutes I heard several frogs at one end of the pool cover pond in an all out dual for position on that end of the pool with all of them barking and squeaking like they do when they're actually getting into little fistfights and wrestling each other. I knew he was involved so I was about to go outside and see how he was faring in the contest (the doors are large screened sliding doors so the chorus sounds like it's inside our house most nights). Then before I could get out there they fell completely silent. That happens in their heightened competitions so I didn't think that was off. When I got there, a distance of about 40 feet, all I saw on the dry flat part of the pool coping they all like to ist on, was Henry's water outline with his long crooked leg exactly as if he was sitting there a split second before and then just wasn't there, with no sign of a jump or any movement or any struggle. He was just instantly abducted. It was his perfectly shaped shadow right down to his fingers and toes. Next to his impression were 3 broad, 5 inch-long perfectly straight strips of water and a small downy owl feather floating in the water about 5 inches from the scene. The frogs stayed silent for much longer than they normally would between most choruses in any normal night. The next night I saw the actual owl standing in the yard just a few feet outside the pool fence, and after that I saw it gliding over the pool on a couple other nights but since then haven't seen one. Of course I've always heard owls here at night but never saw one hunting on the pool cover pond.