Need Some Help, possibly sick White's :(

[Kisa]

Yeah, you heard it, ANOTHER one of my White's may be sick. I'm not sure, it could just be adjustment or some other type of behavioral problem, but here goes.

A few days ago I noticed one of my new baby White's, Bruce Willis (Orange with blue eyes) had stopped coming out at night to eat and soak. I made sure s/he was still in the cage by searching around an found him/her buried in the moss in one of the potted plants I have in the tank. I left him/her alone and went back to what I was doing, not wanting to bother him/her and make it worse. A few days later I noticed s/he was out in the day time, awake, and doing a strange kicking motion with her legs, like something was stuck to him/her. I looked all around and didn't see anything stuck to his/her body, moss, skin, etc. so I thought this movement could have been some sort of muscle spasm. S/he was having trouble climbing too because s/he kept kicking while attached to the wall and falling off and landing on the paper towel bottom of the tank.

Last night I reached my breaking point when again s/he didn't come out to eat and put her in a bath of honey water to see if that might perk her up. To my surprise she had a good amount of skin still attached to her body, as if she had had an incomplete shed or two. I realized then that the kicking motion she was doing might have been an attempt to get this skin off, and now that she was in the water it was coming off almost easily. I then decided to up the humidity in the tank and see if that helps him/her shed and maybe act more normal and come out to eat, it is currently at 75% (It was at 65%) but I may raise it to 80% if I see no change. That was last night and this morning I saw no improvement, but it's only been a night so we'll see.

This morning I saw him/her doing the kicking motion again and then lay his/her belly flat on the ground and stick her legs out to try and rub something off her tummy, so I grabbed him/her, flipped him/her over and found a huge piece of skin still attached to his/her belly. I pulled it off and put him/her back, it's been a few minutes and s/he's just sitting next to the water dish, I assume, trying to sleep.

I'm going to keep humidity high in the tank and see if that helps. At least the skin is off, as far as I know.

Any one have any thoughts about this? Maybe more suggestions on what I should do? S/he isn't interested in food and has lost a little weight since I got him/her, s/he is only a baby after all.

Oh, and this frog is in the same tank with a presumably healthy one (Paul Newman) and he has shown no signs of illness or behavioral differences.

Thanks guys, any ideas you have could really help so fire away!

[Leefrogs]

Ummm, you've had these guys 2&1/2 or 3 weeks. I don't think humidity is the problem. But maybe the paper towels. Paper products should be unbleached, as I've heard of fish getting a diease from using cotton in a biologic filter. I think people use the paper to make sure additions are eating(pooping) and to easier gather fecal samples. The dust that comes off white paper towels is much greater than what comes off of brown ones. I've also read red leg looking irritation can come from cardboard or paper towel.

Just my guess.

Try posting a picture of the temporary home

[Kisa]

Thanks for the reply Ginger. I have had all three of my baby White's on the same paper towels since I picked up the new ones and have seen no irritation or signs of illness in the other two. Bruce Wayne has been on white paper towels since I got him in February an hew has had no problems, except for a brief stint where he wouldn't eat, but that was adjustment.

I have had the heightened humidity for a day now and have seen no change, though I know it's early. I saw him/her exhibiting the exact same symptoms, trying to kick off some invisible irritant on his/her belly, and is completely ignoring the crickets I put in with him/her. S/he sat around on the ground for quite a while this afternoon, but s/he is now sleeping on the glass in one corner. I don't want to disturb him/her knowing it could cause more unneeded stress, but I am getting quite worried at this point.

If anyone has experience these same symptoms any information would be greatly appreciated. Or anything anyone thinks I should try...

I don't know if I mentioned, but s/he has lost some weight, though that's not my biggest concern. But it will be if s/he looses any more weight...

Thanks guys.

[clownonfire]

I'm following this thread simply to know how this turns out. I'm sure your White's will be just fine, Kisa. You are a great carer.

Eric

[DonLisk]

Hey Kisa, is he/she still having trouble shedding?

The raised humidity should help and something has to be drying the skin out just enough to not let it peel off. I the frog is spending much time on the paper towels, the paper towels could be pulling mositure away from the frog.

If your paper towels are kept damp, it may help with reducing the chance of the above issue (if thats what happening).

Not sure what else might help you and hopefully the condition corrects itself so Bruce sheds normal again.

[bshmerlie]

Kisa and I have texted about this problem and the fact that she found him buried in the moss tells me the humidity was possibly too low. My suggestion was to induce a rainy season for a few days and see if that perks her up. I fake heavy rains on my tree frogs every so often just to keep them on their toes. When she first got Paul he was sleeping deep at the base of the plant so it may have kept him at a little higher humidity so that maybe why he's acting normal. I agree with Ginger about maybe its time to ditch the paper towels. Soil and more plants would allow them to move from wetter to drier areas in the tank as they see fit.

[artes]

I'm going to second the opinion of switching to dirt. It is possible that the orange white's tree frogs need a slightly higher humidity than regular white's, so switching to dirt might help. I would also add a real plant or two to help with humidity - mine have a ficus tree. Froggie spends all his time sitting under it, and Chance hangs off the window below the vine. Froggie loves his ficus, so I'm betting your slightly dry one would love having a plant to sit under.

[Kisa]

Hey guys, thanks so much for all your replies they're really helpful. I am 100% sure now that the skin is the problem with little Willie (my nickname to avoid confusion with my other White's). I found him/her this morning looking a very dark orange color, again this is not normal from the day time. S/he hasn't retreated to the plant again and instead decided to stay out in the open for a little while, to my surprise. S/he is still completely uninterested in food, and must be so uncomfortable, I see him/her sitting and climbing awkwardly because of the skin not coming off.

But anyway, this morning I was worried because s/he was sitting awful strangely, so I reached in and gave him/her a quick examination. I figure helping remove the skin until things get back to normal is all I can do right now, and I found a HUGE string of it hanging from his/her arm and going into his/her mouth. S/he was sleeping when I found him/her, so I'm sure I didn't interrupt a successful shed. Anyway, I only noticed s/he had been trying to eat it when I attempted to remove it from him/her...I pulled it off and proceeded to check for anymore loose pieces. I found one on his/her tummy, but s/he wouldn't stay on his/her back long enough for me to get to it. I tried dropping her in her water dish, as that and the spray bottle both have de-chlorinator in it (as it has vitamin E and aloe to help with shedding) and I hoped it might help him/her to sit in the water for a bit, but s/he jumped right out...

Anyway, I grabbed some pictures of the little guy/gal this morning, I don't see anything physically wrong with him/her besides the incomplete sheds. Eyes look clear and everything...maybe you guys can see something I'm not?




Thanks again for all your replies...I guess all I can do is wait and see if continued high humidity helps.

And @ Artes: I do have two live potted plants in with both of the frogs in the tank. Paul and Bruce Willis both liked to sleep on the plant leaves until now. If you compare the picture of Bruce Willis in my avatar or other pictures in my album to the ones I've just posted, you can see a difference in weight and coloration...But they do have plants to hide and sleep in, just no dirt as of yet.

Here are some pictures of the enclosure.

This one is of the whole tank, you can see the piece of paper I keep there to make them feel safer. I just removed two of them, I had three in total. As you can see I covered half of the tank with a cut up plastic bag to help keep humidity in. I had to tape it because I don't have any plastic wrap, so it still breathes a little. I have been spraying very frequently, four or five times a day, whenever I see the towels start to dry out.


And here's the right side of the tank, where Willie is now, from above.

I'm not sure about switching to soil just yet. I was hoping I would be able to keep them on paper towels for a while, but if I must to keep my frog healthy, I will. I'll keep the plants in pots though and just leave them on top of the soil and I don't want to go the whole nine yards with this tank. Hopefully the situation corrects itself before it gets much worse...

Does anyone see chytrid being a possible problem here...? I'm not sure what the symptoms are but I know it has to do with the skin...I'm really nervous...

Thanks again guys, keep up the suggestions! I'll take whatever you can give me. ><

[Kisa]

I just remembered I have an anti-fungal medication left over from the vet from when Bruce C. was sick. It's some blue stuff in a bottle, it doesn't have a label but I've used it on Bruce C. before with no problems. Do you guys think it's safe to give it a try? I might just put her in another bath of it tonight and see if that helps, just in case it is some kind of fungus related problem.

[artes]

Is it possible for you to get one of those fogger things? That might help. To me, he looks perfectly healthy other than the skin having trouble.

[Kisa]

Is it possible for you to get one of those fogger things? That might help. To me, he looks perfectly healthy other than the skin having trouble.

I do actually have one of those as well, Cheri was kind enough to purchase one for me when we went and got the frogs. I have it set to 75% now, but the sensor seems to be having some trouble as it's reading into the 90's, and I know humidity can't be in the 90's in there right now...but anyway, yeah I do have one. XD;

I know, it's so strange how she looks healthy besides the coloration and problems with the skin. I called and left a message with my vet to see if I could ask her advice as well and see if that anti-fungal would do any good...hopefully I get the a-ok.

[DonLisk]

I think she/he looks fine Kisa. I'd probably just see if feeding picks up in over a few days. If she/he is eating the shed as they always do, then I'd just provide some crickets in a bowl and let be.

Other than that, I'd probably do a tubby daily to help shedding.

As for the humidity, check placement of the fogger sensor and place it somewhere the fog does not hit early during the fogger run time.

[Kisa]

I think she/he looks fine Kisa. I'd probably just see if feeding picks up in over a few days. If she/he is eating the shed as they always do, then I'd just provide some crickets in a bowl and let be.

Other than that, I'd probably do a tubby daily to help shedding.

As for the humidity, check placement of the fogger sensor and place it somewhere the fog does not hit early during the fogger run time.

Thanks for the reply Don, I'll keep everyone updated on her eating habits. If I see her eat anything or even look at a cricket sideways I'm going to be ecstatic. I might just give her a bath in some water with a bit of the medicine in it just to rule out something fungal. I'll move the sensor as soon as I get home.

What's the perfect place for the sensor? Right now I have it kind of high up near a plant but not TOO near...

[DonLisk]

Depends where the fogger is putting in. Example: If is coming in from the left then the sensor should be more toward the right side and probably 1/2 to 2/3 the way up from the bottom.

If the sensor is near the fog coming in then it will shut off early.

[Kisa]

Ok, quick updates. I moved the sensor for the fogger and it seems to be turning on more often now, which is good. I'm having trouble keeping the tape from getting wet, but what's a few pieces of tape for the health and happiness of my frogs, eh? Paul Newman is still doing good as far as I can tell, he's definitely eating. I saw his belly last night and was shocked at how fat he is, no wonder, he's been eating enough crickets for the two of them.

Anyway! Bruce Willis has shown no change, as of yet. I called my vet yesterday and asked for advice, she told me the anti-fungal would be a bad idea because it tends to dry out the skin, which the opposite of what we want, so she put a medicine behind the counter for me that was supposed to be a shedding aid as well as an intestinal lubricant. I will be using this sparingly, as I know Bruce Willis hasn't been eating and needs anything but a good poop right about now, but the vet assured me it would help to lubricate and soothe the skin as well. I gave little Willie a soak of warm water with conditioner last night in the hopes that this might help as well, s/he sat obediently in the water for a good amount of time, which is good because I haven't seen him/her soak in any water voluntarily since his/her illness began showing. I tried to coax him/her with crickets last night as well but s/he showed no interest, as usual. This morning she was that same ugly dark orange (not that it's ugly per se, but it makes me sad knowing that's her unhappy color...) so I went and picked up the medicine in the hopes that I could give him/her a quick soak in it tonight and see if that helps. S/he's been awake in the day time, probably paranoid because of all the handling and stress with his/her skin, but hopefully this will all be over soon. ):

Thanks for reading guys, it makes me feel better to know there are people pulling for me out there! ><

I'll update after I use the medicine tonight. It's called DSS solution, by the way, she said the full name last night but I can't remember it right now...anyway, thanks!

[EZweasel]

I have had five whites’ tree frogs. Two of them adjusted fine to my tanks with no problem, while the other three wanted to bury themselves. Well, with one of the WTF's I kept rooting up and misting him and giving him food. He ate for a while, but eventually became so stressed that he died. The other two, which I currently own, I left buried until they were ready to come out on their own. Eventually they started coming out with no problem at all. It took them a couple of weeks. I think that sometimes these frogs may become more easily stressed than we tend to think. Just because they are smiling doesn't mean they aren't afraid. If they have nowhere to hide they are more than likely going to dig.

[Kisa]

You're absolutely right EZweasel. I'm sorry to hear about your loss by the way, I don't know what I would do if I lost one of mine...D: I have had both of these frogs for nearly a month now and Bruce Willis seemed to be adjusting fine until I noticed s/he was burying him/herself and had incomplete sheds. I do think I was keeping it too dry in the tank and that's why s/he burrowed and is having trouble shedding, hopefully the increased humidity is working on his/her upset skin.

I try to leave my frogs alone as much as I can, especially when they're sick. All of them respond to human intervention in different ways, which is why I tend to leave a frog be if they start acting weird first off. But his/her incomplete shed I cannot ignore because I know it gives him/her a great amount of discomfort. I'm seeing a little improvement today, which is good, but I'm still going to treat at least once with the DSS solution tonight if I don't see him/her eating.

The good news is I see Bruce Willis' color has lightened a bit, almost back to his/her original creamy daytime color and have not seen him/her struggle or kick his/her legs at all since yesterday. S/he has finally returned to a plant leaf instead of sleeping on the floor of the tank, and seems to be resting peacefully for now. Maybe I won't need the DSS after all...I'm just hoping his/her appetite returns.

Keep your fingers crossed everyone!

[Kisa]

Quick update:

Looks like I didn't need the DSS after all.

Yesterday afternoon (I said this in my previous post) Bruce Willis moved from the floor of the viv back up to the plant, which was a good sign. S/he stayed there all the rest of the day and into the night. I added less crickets to the viv last night because I'm sure Paul is healthy as a horse as he's eating all twenty before little Willis even gets a chance. >> S/he didn't come down from the leaf to eat last night as far as I know, but I found him/her on the rim of a water bowl on the cold side of the tank, looking near dead. Luckily it was my imagination and s/he was just sleeping. Worried, I poked his/her butt until s/he hopped over the warm side of the tank (s/he must have been freezing it was almost in the 50s last night in my room). S/he is now attached the wall with the heating pad, warming up and trying to sleep I think.

I haven't seen any of the previous behavior in two days: No kicking or rubbing his/her tummy on the ground, no weird climbing (though s/he's always had trouble with that I've noticed and Paul doesn't climb at all that I've ever seen) but his/her weight is starting to concern me. I don't know how long it's been since s/he has eaten anything and s/he is starting to look skinny, TOO skinny for a White's. Compared to Paul s/he looks emaciated...I've dropped some pedialite into the spray bottle and gave him/her a good spray down, thinking maybe the electrolytes will help to get his/her appetite back? I'm not sure...I just really hope s/he starts eating soon or there's a trip to the vet in our future.

[Kurt]

I would take the frog to the vet. I have no clue as to what is wrong.

[Immortal]

Poor Willis! I hope he gets better soon <3

I'm also going to add, my car is named Bruce Willis.. lol