Chorus frog very concerning behaviour

[Gnag the nameless]

This all started a while back, at around August 21st. I'd just gotten back from my 4 week vacation to England. Whilst I was gone, I had one of my friends come in, feed the frogs, and change their water/clean the tanks. When I got back, everything seemed fine. But ever since then, one of my Pacific Chorus frogs, Thermidor, has been acting weird.

He had difficulty eating food, and is much skinnier than normal. Also, he couldn't seem to use his tongue properly -- he'll bite at the crickets as they pass by but will rarely get them, and usually only does when they go directly below him, as in on his hands. Assuming it was a case of Short Tongue Syndrome, I've gone ahead and given him a lot of Vitamin dusted crickets. I've kind of had to feed him by dangling the cricket in front of his mouth, and letting him bite at it and push it into his mouth. He's been appearing to improve. However, I'm worried another problem has arisen as I've found regurgitated crickets in his water bowl. This was a good several weeks back, and ever since I haven't seen any regurgitated crickets. It could have likely been from the fluctuating weather -- it's been going from very hot to warm to heavy pouring rain, back to very hot again and so on around here. It could have been also from the Vitamin dusting, but I'm not sure. Either way, not a good sign.

I'm certain it's not parasites as his tankmate, Levi, is as plump as ever and eats like a hog, and doesn't miss one cricket. All of my other amphibians are plump and acting normally. Back to Thermidor, I've been feeding him every other day as I do all my frogs and he eats 1-3 crickets a night. He also seems to be slowly regaining weight, and is a little lethargic as I'll often have to wait a little while before feeding him another cricket whilst Levi gobbles up all his crickets for the night under a minute. However, Thermidor does appear to be improving slowly, and has regained much better use of his tongue. He also eats better now. He's also as active as ever, coming out in the early evening and throughout the night, and will lunge at crickets occasionally, though most of the time I have to assist him or place the crickets directly below his head, onto his hands.

One odd thing happened tonight though -- whilst hand-feeding him a cricket, he grabbed it with his tongue (Something I've not seen since before I got back from my vacation) and then his tongue hung out of his mouth for a second, with the cricket on it, before he pulled it back into his mouth and gobbled it up. Maybe his tongue muscles are just beginning to regrow, I'm not sure, but I thought it would be notable. I've also fed him just now and he ate the cricket much more easily than the last one, though he did take a little to swallow it. Anyway, I would any appreciate thoughts, suggestions, and recommendations. I just feel really bad that one of my frogs have already gotten sick again only three months after Gnag :/

[Lija]

Caspian, it is either parasites or infection or both. I would start with testing for parasites.

[Gnag the nameless]

Agreed. It's pretty solid that it's one of the two. I'll start by preparing a quarantine tank tomorrow, and since I'm getting new substrate tomorrow as well, I'll clean out his old tank entirely. I'll quarantine his tankmate too, I think. And I'll definitely clean out anything used to clean their tanks as well as contents.

My theory is that since I've never treated either of my Chorus frogs for parasites, the short tongue syndrome developed during my vacation, caused stress, and caused either the parasites to take advantage and infest the frogs or an infection to occur. Or both.

Really bad timing for all of this too, because it's my birthday tomorrow and I just got back to school. But, you do what you gotta do.

[tgampper]

The "short tongue syndrome" is caused by a lack of Vitamin A. When I worked at the zoo, this was a common problem. To improve feeding behavior, place one drop of liquid Vitamin A on the back once a week.

[Gnag the nameless]

I'll try and see if I can get some Vitamin A when I consult the Vet soon.

Update:

Just placed Thermidor in quarantine, a 5 gallon. I have another that I'm going to set up tomorrow for Levi. As for Thermidor, he's skinnier than normal but relatively far off from bone skinny, which is a good sign. Very active, eats a lot, and his tongue is definitely getting better. Still going to quarantine him and get that fecal done though. Here's an image of the quarantine tank, sorry if it's bad quality, I took it a few minutes ago and it's late evening for me.


He is truly a gorgeous frog in my eyes...

Unfortunately, talked to my friend who often visits the Exotic Vet nearby my house (Her family runs an Animal Rescue) and it apparently might cost 50-75$ for a fecal which is kind of shocking, considering I expected more in the 20$-30$ range.

Once that's done, the meds shouldn't cost too much, if anything at all. Bumpy and Gnag's medications (Panacur for Bumpy, liquid Calcium for Gnag) were given to us for free since the amounts were so miniscule, and since Thermidor is less than 2 inches snout to vent, I have no doubt these medications will cost close to nothing. However, how we'll give him the meds is difficult. I cannot forcefeed him due to his tiny size so I'm thinking the 'Drop of Medication onto Back' or a bath of some kind will have to do it. Whether it's parasites or simply a bacterial infection, I'll give the same treatment for Levi since he's his tankmate and completely clean out their 20 gallon, sterilize the contents of it that I can and throw out everything else. If the fecal isn't too expensive, I might get Bumpy tested too, but I'll save that for when I'm done with

I'm going to phone up the Vet tomorrow or whenever I can and ask how much a Fecal Exam for a very small frog would be. Hopefully, it's not too expensive. If it is, I'll find a way around it. Glad I've got this underway and that Thermidor's still in somewhat good condition.

[Jessalyn]

Poor babies he is a very beautiful frog. I've never seen a PCF with so many patterns. I hope all goes well for them!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flybyferns]

Caspian,

I hope all goes well for your wild caught frogs.
Now that you have them, they should not be returned to the wild at this point.

Vitamin A can be dusted on feeders (Repashy makes it)

Link here : Vetdna is a common used reasonable- -mail- away- service.
RAL - Test : Reptile
Give them a call first so you don't duplicate any efforts.
Make sure they know the frogs have had medication and have the name of the drug available as some drugs can interfere with certain 'testing' plans.
I'm not so sure how much "advice" they will give yo? ...but its worth a try.
Ranavirus and Chytrid Fungus (B. dendrobatidis) are the 2 tests that are done commonly on wild caught frogs.
There may be others
Plus they can do the fecals.

Once the panacur is started on 'Bumpy' in will interfere with many common fecal / parasitic tests.
A vet will likely tell to wait and test after the panacure treatment and then retest?

Sound like it's a real good idea to a speak or see a vet so you have a plan of care moving forward from here.

I sure you know to separate them at this point into separate QT/hospital enclosures that are easy to 're-sterilize' every few days.
Use a very minimal set up with things that can be boiled and/ rinsed the the very hottest water you can stand- then doused w/ de-chlorinated water.

Panacur MUST be ingested -- it will not work any other way.

Liquid calcium will like be absorbed... but depends on the product you have.
There are Calcuim drops that can be placed on the frogs back.
If it's a nutritional supplement , it also needs to be ingested.

Reminder:
http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html
You could call or email Dr or call Dr Frye. All transactions are done via email and credit card.

[Jessalyn]

I'm not sure if this was meant for this thread or mine, but I think we both benefit from your advice, thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flybyferns]

I'm not sure if this was meant for this thread or mine, but I think we both benefit from your advice, thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Caspain and Jessalyn...Thanks
I put the wrong name on the reply
(I did edit it)
I hope it didn't cause any confusion
I see you did- assumed that ....sorry
Funny things happen at the crack of dawn

[Gnag the nameless]

I think there was some confusion towards my last post, I'll just clarify a little. (No worries on it, though. I totally understand if you made a few errors whilst replying early in the morning -- I'm usually very groggy when I wake up.)

First off, Bumpy is fine. He's showing no bad behaviour whatsoever. Same goes for the Firebelly Toads and Salamanders. As for the Panacur and Calcium I was referencing, I was talking about previous times in the past I've gone to my Vet for Gnag and Bumpy's past ailments.

As for Thermidor, it's parasites or a bacterial infection, no doubt about it. Symptoms are: Diarrhea, eating but losing weight rapidly (For example, his tummy will shrink a little before I feed him, and then is a little plumper the day after but loses that before second feeding), and vomiting. With luck, since he's such a tiny frog, the medications will cost nothing or close to it. I also think we can try medicinal baths but with a solution of water and a tiny bit of the medications.

Talking about the medications, does anyone know how one could treat a small frog like a Pacific Chorus frog or Poison Dart frog for parasites and/or a bacterial infection considering they're too small to force feed?

I'm going to consult the Vet on Monday, and hopefully get the meds then too. I'll also place Levi in quarantine then, as I don't want to stress him into a the same state Thermidor is in until treatment begins. As for Thermidor's short tongue syndrome, I have little doubt that's what's caused this, as the lack of food due to short tongue brought on whilst I was on vacation caused weakness in immune system and the parasites to start to build up. Talking about the Short Tongue, in that aspect Thermidor is improving. But I'm definitely going to go through with the medications and Vet visit.

I've dealt with this before, with Bumpy about 2 years ago. It took a while to cure him since he was lethargic, but he's fine now, and since Thermidor is still eating hopefully this'll be resolved faster than the ordeal with Bumpy.

[Gnag the nameless]

Update:

Going to consult the Vet tomorrow, and hear his opinion. Hopefully, I'll be able to get Thermidor on some medications soon enough.

As for Thermidor, his tongue is getting better every day. He might even be able to catch his own food now. I've been feeding him every other day, 2-3 crickets, as is normal, and each time he goes through a kind of cycle. On the night I feed him, he's very skinny. Next morning, he's plump and stays that way either all of the day or most of it. Then, either that evening or next morning, he poops and becomes skinny again. His poops have been wet, watery, and like diarrhea, but relatively formed as in (apart from the liquid,) the contents of it stay together. Thermidor has also been sleeping a lot, but is still very energetic when awoken and at nighttime, and apart from the poop and rapid weight loss, is entirely normal. I've not seen any vomiting, either.

As for his tankmate, Levi, he's as fat as ever and is acting regular, as are the rest of my amphibians. This suggests that it is indeed a bacterial infection Thermidor has, not parasites, but I'm still keeping up strict quarantine procedure and am going to assume for now that Thermidor has both a bacterial infection and parasites.

[Lija]

Caspian, runny poop is almost always a sign of protozoa infection, it s possible the guy have multiple parasite species. If they were housed together, they need to be treated both too for the same things.

[Gnag the nameless]

Alright. I've dealt with protozoa before, 2 years ago with Bumpy, so if it is that chances are it won't be too difficult to deal with.

Update:

Thermidor produced a firm but a little underdigested poop this morning, using that one for the fecal exam.

Got back from the Vet visit just now. According to the Vet, it may very well be Chytrid due to the rapid weight loss Thermidor is experiencing, which is very bad. It could also just be parasites of some sort. If it's the former, though, then it may well have come from my Firebelly Toads, or simply from Thermidor himself. But chances are it's from the toads, because I have reason to believe he was experiencing either Short Tongue or whatever he was now before the vacation as well as if I recall correctly he was starting to look skinny then too. However, that could simply have been the short tongue on it's first stages, so for now it all depends on the fecal exam.

The Good News is is that the fecal will cost me exactly 0.00$ and I can drop it off tomorrow. So, at least it's all underway. And I forgot to mention the vomiting, so that suggests parasites as well... Never thought I'd say this, but crossing my fingers it's parasites or a bacterial infection. We'll see tomorrow.

[Gnag the nameless]

Just got the results of the fecal back, and it turns out it's negative so either a bacterial infection or Chytrid, I'm assuming...

I'll consult the Vet tomorrow and hear his opinion. In the meantime, does anyone know of a way to treat Chytrid? I've heard of several methods, one involving something called lamasil, but I honestly will need to clear it with my Vet first. And if Thermidor indeed has Chytrid, we can assume it originated from one of my Firebelly Toads, and has spread to my entire collection of frogs... I'm praying it's a bacterial infection, but at this point it could be either. The rapid weight loss suggests Chytrid but the vomiting and runny stool point to Bacterial infection.

However, Thermidor has had this problem for a long time. Were I to guess, it's been at least three to five weeks, possibly seven when it really first began (The short tongue may have been developing before I went on vacation, only I didn't notice it). However, can Chytrid take that much time to kill a frog? Also, is vomiting a symptom of such?

[flybyferns]

Oh boy
Sorry Caspain

Good to hear you are talking to the vet about all of this!
The frogs should be tested for Chytrid and Rana virus -- see post #7

The lamisil treatment for positive (B. dendrobatidis)
Lamisil AT spray
1cc in 220 ml of distilled water
soak entire frog /for 5 minutes / daily /for 15 days
New lamisil solution needs to be made every 24 hours

Athlete's Foot Spray | Athlete's Foot Treatment | LamisilAT

QT tanks need to be bleach daily ( 1:10) during treatment ( and rinsed with de-chlorinator and water )
then spray QT daily with the lamisil solution /don't rinse

repeat Chytrid test

It is very important to identify this as being positive.
A swab should be sent to vetDNA.
If it's positive; every frog needs to be treated.
and
Every tank will have to be dismantled/ treated/every plant and all substrate properly discarded

Obviously, it would be just terrible to do this without conformation !!!

Be sure to let the vet know about he vomiting.
There are certainly other illnesses the frog could have?

[Gnag the nameless]

Sorry I haven't posted until now, been busy. Lotta homework these days, and I've got a notoriously terrible memory.

Anyhow, talked to the Vet, and since it's actually illegal to keep Pacific Chorus frogs in BC (something I was unaware of up until six months or so ago) he can't send a sample testing for Chytrid to a proper lab, as it could come with legal issues. Nonetheless, since Thermidor's symptoms are so obscure but non-severe, we don't really know what it is. I don't think it's Chytrid considering Thermidor is still alive and is showing no other symptoms of such but I'm not cancelling out that as a possibility. But, since testing on such a small frog is difficult apart from a fecal sample or doing an autopsy, all we can do for now is really give him as good a life as I can offer, as giving him antibiotics for something we don't know could very well worsen his condition. For all we know, he could be dying of old age.

So, for now, I've been keeping him in his own 5gallon (will upgrade to 10 gallon soon) with plants and a water bowl, and I've been feeding him regularly but keeping strict quarantine procedure. If he somehow becomes free of illness, and stays that way for over two months, I'll move him back into his main tank with Levi. But, if he passes, I'll likely have a necropsy done if I can afford it. I'll let you all know if the situation progresses in any way, shape, or form.