Still Sick Whites Tree Frog and frustrated!

[ajfilbert]

So, I posted last week regarding Big J, our Whites tree frog. He stopped eating, not moving, his skin is crackly and dry (he has shed some and now looks a bit better, but is still dry) and he's losing weight. I took him to the vet on Wednesday and they have never seen anything like it. They gave me antibotics to give him and I have to give him nebulizer treatments 2x a day. I also have to force feed him turkey baby food. He still isnt' doing too well. I'm not sure hes going to make it.
Has anyone seen anything like this??

[Tony]

Yes, the build up of dried skin is one of the primary signs of infection by chytrid fungus. I would start treatment immediately.

During treatment you will want to use a lightweight, easily handled container that can be easily sterilized. I prefer large Kritter keepers, but you may also consider a modified sterilite container. Set the frog up with a paper towel at the bottom and a water dish, plastic or glazed ceramic are best since it will need to be sterilized as well.

For treatment you will need to mix up a solution of 1mL Lamisil foot spray (the pump bottle is preferable, but the continuous spray can also be used, the cream form is not suitable) to 200mL dechlorinated water. Each day you will need to soak the frog in this solution for 5-10 minutes, use a disposable container and make sure all parts of the frog are bathed in the solution, but make sure the frog is able to keep its nostrils above the water line so it can breathe.

While the frog is soaking its kritter keeper and dish must be sterilized, this is very important to prevent reinfection. Soak in 10% bleach solution for 10 minutes then thoroughly rinse and dry, ensuring there is no bleach smell when dry. Having two keepers and dishes makes this process easier since you can have one sterilized and ready to go each day immediately following the soak. During the first few days you may need to gently massage the built up layers of dead skin off of the frog, use another disposable container with dechlorinated water and remove the skin after the Lamisil soak.

The treatment should be repeated daily for 10 days. During this time you will want to keep stress to a minimum, keep the frog in a dimly lit, warm (temperatures over 75 degrees slow the fungus significantly), quiet area with a minimal level of activity surrounding it. Cease force feeding, your frog has plenty of fat reserves to sustain it through treatment and the stress of handling and force feeding will do more harm than good. You should see significant improvement and possibly a returned appetite between day 4 and 6, but continue treatment for the full 10 days to ensure the fungus has been completely killed off.

[Tony]

I just saw from your first post that you have multiple frogs housed together. They will all need to be housed individually and treated as described above. Their current tank needs to be emptied and thoroughly cleaned and sterilized. The tank and all plastic or ceramic furnishings may be sterilized with 10% bleach solution, all substrate, live plants, and other items that can't be sterilized must be disposed of. Empty all such materials into a garbage bag, tie it shut, then double bag it to prevent the release of chytrid infected materials into the local environment.

[clownonfire]

Hi, sorry about this... As Tony said, you will need to start a Lamasil treatment asap for your frogs, all of them. I will stress out that everything they came in contact with need to be sterilized as Tony described: the tank, the bath container after each rinse, etc...

If you were using any sort of tools, either to clean the substrate or pick up crickets, likewise.

As for the Lamasil AT, I've recently treated a small group of frogs as a prevention using Lamasil. Here are a few pointers, though, to make sure everything is done correctly:

1. The treatment "bath" was usually not deep - basically enough that the stomach and base of the legs/hips would be in it, but not up above the chest which could be a drowning risk.

2. Size of the container is also important, to try and make sure they are in contact with the solution, and not spend most of their soak climbing up the sides not in contact with it.

3. Make sure it's properly diluted. A friend had a frog lose an eye after a treatment. Water level as stated above shouldn't be too deep to prevent contact with the eyes.

4. One thing to think about with the treatment of your White's maybe giving them a really good rinse in plain water after the treatment (particularly if they get it in their eyes) and before they go back in the tank to rinse off any extra medication. There may be some alcohol in the Lamisil that is irritating the eye and causing the issue. Rinsing would help, but also letting the alcohol evaporate.

5. As Tony mentioned, try and keep the stress level of your frog to a minimal. It was reported that a high stress from treating for Chytrid may have driven the bacterial infection out of control.

Good luck!

Eric

[Tony]

I have never had eye problems following treatment, but I do allow the continuous spray version to sit out for a few minutes so some alcohol can evaporate. It is important that all parts of the frog come in contact with the solution so there is no way to avoid the eyes. I usually use an 8 oz deli cup and lid for treatment, I fill it halfway, put the frog in, and gently tilt it around so that the solution runs over the entire frog, then let them sit in it.

[ajfilbert]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I will get the Lamasil today and start the treatments tonight. I did clean out the main tank and sterlize everything before I put the frog that is not sick back in it. Everything that couldn't be sterlized got thrown away.
The sick frog is now in its own "hopstial tank" with paper towels down (easy to clean up each day) with a bowl of water, a rock and plastic follage.
So you are saying that I should sterlize the hostial tank each day while he is soaking in the solution? Also, should I treat the frog that isn't sick, but shared a tank up until 4 days ago?

Thanks and I will let you know how he's doing.

[Tony]

So you are saying that I should sterlize the hostial tank each day while he is soaking in the solution? Also, should I treat the frog that isn't sick, but shared a tank up until 4 days ago?

Correct on both counts. Chytrid is very contagious, it is likely that the other frog was also infected and just hasn't become symptomatic yet.

[clownonfire]

I have never had eye problems following treatment, but I do allow the continuous spray version to sit out for a few minutes so some alcohol can evaporate. It is important that all parts of the frog come in contact with the solution so there is no way to avoid the eyes. I usually use an 8 oz deli cup and lid for treatment, I fill it halfway, put the frog in, and gently tilt it around so that the solution runs over the entire frog, then let them sit in it.

After an exchange with Corey and Fernando Licitra, here's what Corey had to say about the frog having to be submerged completely:

"My understanding was that it would get into the areas where the heaviest infestation of Chytrid would be (stomach/legs/areas that come in contact with the ground) and that some of these areas are where they absorb water from (drinking pads at the base of the legs/stomach), which would be how the drug got into the bloodstream and spread to the rest of the body - Chytrid is a systemic infection not just a topical one."

Fernando (Minhocao on this forum) is the one who his Phyllomedusa sauvagii lost an eye.

Any thoughts?

[ajfilbert]

WOW!
So could he be acting and starting to look kind of normal after one application??
I got a disposable tupperware dish w/ a lid (with holes) to put the frog (in the solution). I let him sit in it while I sterilized his tank. After 10 mins of soaking the skin on his back starting peeling right off! I was amazed! He is on antibiotics too, so it might be a combination of the 2, but I was very surprised!
I am throwing the tupperware dishes/lids in the dishwasher to sterilize them. That would work, don't you think??

[Tony]

After an exchange with Corey and Fernando Licitra, here's what Corey had to say about the frog having to be submerged completely:

"My understanding was that it would get into the areas where the heaviest infestation of Chytrid would be (stomach/legs/areas that come in contact with the ground) and that some of these areas are where they absorb water from (drinking pads at the base of the legs/stomach), which would be how the drug got into the bloodstream and spread to the rest of the body - Chytrid is a systemic infection not just a topical one."

Fernando (Minhocao on this forum) is the one who his Phyllomedusa sauvagii lost an eye.

Any thoughts?

It is not necessary that the frog is submerged completely, only that some of the solution is splashed over the top parts of the frog during treatment. The highest concentration of fungus does seem to be on the drinking patch, belly, and legs from the papers I have read.

[Tony]

WOW!
So could he be acting and starting to look kind of normal after one application??
I got a disposable tupperware dish w/ a lid (with holes) to put the frog (in the solution). I let him sit in it while I sterilized his tank. After 10 mins of soaking the skin on his back starting peeling right off! I was amazed! He is on antibiotics too, so it might be a combination of the 2, but I was very surprised!
I am throwing the tupperware dishes/lids in the dishwasher to sterilize them. That would work, don't you think??

It is very possible, removal of the dead layers of skin will allow the frog to breath more efficiently (a large portion of their oxygen intake is through the skin). The quick improvement is why I put the warning about continuing through the 10 day treatment even if the frog seems to be back to normal early on, he may look much better but the infection still needs to be 100% cured or he will relapse.

[ajfilbert]

It is very possible, removal of the dead layers of skin will allow the frog to breath more efficiently (a large portion of their oxygen intake is through the skin). The quick improvement is why I put the warning about continuing through the 10 day treatment even if the frog seems to be back to normal early on, he may look much better but the infection still needs to be 100% cured or he will relapse.

I will absolutely continue for the next 10 days! Thanks sooooo MUCH!!!

[Tony]

How is he doing? Still improving?

[ajfilbert]

He is doing better! Slowly! He is now fighting me over the antiboitcs I have to give him everyday and his sheding after the "baths" is getting better too! He still isn't eating his crickets, but started producing BM's yesterday.
Ill post a picture of his progress tomorrow! Thanks for asking!

[Tony]

Good news, keep it up and he should be back to normal in no time.