Horacio: RIP.

[coffeebaron]

I'm very sad and shocked to say my False Tomato Frog, Horacio, passed away last night

I've absoloutly no idea what the cause was, and had no preceeding expectations this was going to be the case. I had come home from work, misted him as usual, and he was breathing normally, and looking alert. several hours later, I've gone up to check and he is at the front of the tank on his back

I checked the temps, 73.8 in the warm end, 68 at the cool, so no change there, and he wasn't dry, so no dessication. I'm trully stumped what's caused his death, I wondered about impactation, but he was on plantation soil/eco earth, which I was of the opinion is safe. The only other thing that was a recent change is I tried to feed him on a wax moth, but that moved around above him too much the previous night he lept about his tank any time it came near. Could he have died from stress?

I'm concerned it was anything to do with food/water etc as the sources for all my frogs are the same. My whites seem to be doing fine, but then again so did Horacio.

I'm really devastated at his death, especially so soon after I've started to keep frogs.

[DonLisk]

So sorry to hear of your loss Wes.

Hard to tell since it sounds like your doing things right.
Again so sorry.


Don

[Mentat]

Sorry for your frog's untimely death.

[Poly]

Very sorry for your loss!

Could you please post a photo of his enclosure?

I'd like to dig a little deeper into this, and see what caused his death.

The temperature may have been too cold, I know these frogs prefer temperatures of 75F and up as they are a tropical frog, so 68 was too cold, this would have stressed the frog, but I'm not sure it would have been enough to kill it. Did you suply it with a heat pad?

I recently purchased a coin sized pacman frog, and when they are little like that, they require an external heat source, so I keep my baby in the high 70s to low 80s and it sticks to the heat pad area of it's viv like glue, so the temperature could have deninitely had something to do with it.

What did you keep his humidity at? Tomato frogs require high humidity. 75%-85% Did you have a humidity gague?

Was it supplied with a shallow bowl of non-chlorinated water to soak in?

What was it's staple food source? Crickets, worms, etc.? Did you dust it's food with a vitamin & calicum dust?

Is there anything in the tank it could have accidently ingested such as small rocks, chips of wood, long strands of moss, etc that could have caused impaction?

Also, a photo of the dead frog may/would help.

~Royce

P.S. Let's figure this out!

[coffeebaron]

Thank you to all, and Royce, thank you for offering to help solve my mystery- I'll take some pics of the enclosure and post them tomorrow (bear with the time delay for uk hours)

I'd heard conflicting infor regards the temps, as i'd read in a care guide when young to keep them in lower to mid 70's, and raise them to near 80 when grown on. I will find a link to this care guide so as to highlight.

the humidity level I unfortunatley had not monitored with a guage (naieve mistake,I have never had to with snakes and underestimated the prospective need to with frogs and i'm used to the dial gauges not being wonderfully acurate), however I was giving him 3 mistings a day using de-chlorinated tap water *(tetra aquasafe) and his substrate and enclosure never dried out. He had a small exo terra rock dish to soak in,however I only ever saw him go and use it breifly once. This was changed daily and again with de-chlorinated tap water.

He was fed small locust/crickets and wax worms(very sparingly with the wax worms) these were pre-fed with potato/egg plant and dusted with komodo frog formula vit powder.

unfortunately I didn't think to photograph the corpse-he had no visible blemishes or bacterial growth, and was still moist and soft.eyes were clear. The only distinguishing aspect was when I found him he was on his back and slightly darker in colouration to the rear of his body/legs.

I did use sphagnum moss in his tank as I knew it to aid in humidity, however I do wonder if this could have been ingested? as said the bedding was Exo Terra Plantation Soil Single Pack 8.8L

excuse the size of the link

Oh regards the heat source, I was utilising the transfered heat from the ceramic that heats my rosy boas tank. this is hooked up to a thermostat with temp gauge. The heat was only covering 50% of his tank and was producing the steady heat of 73/4 air temp over the heat source. I understand this may not have been the most suitable method, but the figures seemed correct and suitable to me when I was setting his tank up and taking readings. I used an exo terra digital thermometer.

Incidentally my Whites are heated by an exo terra heat mat wrapped aroud the side of their tank. So far all is well with them, however I am concerned as I thought all was very well with my False Tom.

Lastly, I don't know how much this could have caused an issue, but in my house we suffer some damp problems (as in the fungal variety from moisture being trapped) and in a bid to combat this we use some bleach based mould killers. Now when we have cleaned the small patches in the reptile room in our home, we have sprayed a small amount on a cloth and rubbed it in, NOT sprayed it in the room. There is a faint but noticable scent of chlorine/bleach in the air for a little while after this. Would the Tomato Frog have been so sensetive that this could have caused a reaction, yet not in the WTF?

I'll admit I'm slightly hessitant to mention that last piece as I don't want it to possibly detract from another possible cause of death. I don't wish for anything to happen to my whites, so I'm hoping to learn from this.

Sorry for the wall of information Royce, and anyone else kind enough to read, but I hope that's some good info to start the investigation on

[Poly]

Thank you to all, and Royce, thank you for offering to help solve my mystery- I'll take some pics of the enclosure and post them tomorrow (bear with the time delay for uk hours)

I'd heard conflicting infor regards the temps, as i'd read in a care guide when young to keep them in lower to mid 70's, and raise them to near 80 when grown on. I will find a link to this care guide so as to highlight.

the humidity level I unfortunatley had not monitored with a guage (naieve mistake,I have never had to with snakes and underestimated the prospective need to with frogs and i'm used to the dial gauges not being wonderfully acurate), however I was giving him 3 mistings a day using de-chlorinated tap water *(tetra aquasafe) and his substrate and enclosure never dried out. He had a small exo terra rock dish to soak in,however I only ever saw him go and use it breifly once. This was changed daily and again with de-chlorinated tap water.

He was fed small locust/crickets and wax worms(very sparingly with the wax worms) these were pre-fed with potato/egg plant and dusted with komodo frog formula vit powder.

unfortunately I didn't think to photograph the corpse-he had no visible blemishes or bacterial growth, and was still moist and soft.eyes were clear. The only distinguishing aspect was when I found him he was on his back and slightly darker in colouration to the rear of his body/legs.

I did use sphagnum moss in his tank as I knew it to aid in humidity, however I do wonder if this could have been ingested? as said the bedding was Exo Terra Plantation Soil Single Pack 8.8L

excuse the size of the link

Oh regards the heat source, I was utilising the transfered heat from the ceramic that heats my rosy boas tank. this is hooked up to a thermostat with temp gauge. The heat was only covering 50% of his tank and was producing the steady heat of 73/4 air temp over the heat source. I understand this may not have been the most suitable method, but the figures seemed correct and suitable to me when I was setting his tank up and taking readings. I used an exo terra digital thermometer.

Incidentally my Whites are heated by an exo terra heat mat wrapped aroud the side of their tank. So far all is well with them, however I am concerned as I thought all was very well with my False Tom.

Lastly, I don't know how much this could have caused an issue, but in my house we suffer some damp problems (as in the fungal variety from moisture being trapped) and in a bid to combat this we use some bleach based mould killers. Now when we have cleaned the small patches in the reptile room in our home, we have sprayed a small amount on a cloth and rubbed it in, NOT sprayed it in the room. There is a faint but noticable scent of chlorine/bleach in the air for a little while after this. Would the Tomato Frog have been so sensetive that this could have caused a reaction, yet not in the Whites Tree Frog?

I'll admit I'm slightly hessitant to mention that last piece as I don't want it to possibly detract from another possible cause of death. I don't wish for anything to happen to my whites, so I'm hoping to learn from this.

Sorry for the wall of information Royce, and anyone else kind enough to read, but I hope that's some good info to start the investigation on

No problem Wes! Anything I can do to help!

1. Heat: Now that you mention that, I have too read somewhere that juvenile Tomato frogs are supposed to be kept at cooler temperatures than adults, but I would still have went with the mid to high 70s and a small 4 watt tank side heat pad to give it that option of mid 70s temps on one side and low 70s temps on the other. What size of tank was it kept in?

2. Humidity: 3 mistings a day, MAY have been enough to keep it's himidity at an adequate level, depending on the type of lid you had, if it was glass with small vents, yes, if it was a screen lid, no. I have my Malatsian Painted frogs (close relative of the Tomato frog, same Genus) in an 18 gallon planted vivarium with a glass lid and a small vent roughlt 1" wide and 10" long, and I have to mist 6 times a day to keep their humidity at 80%, so with a screen lid, it's most likely be double that (assuming you were using a screen lid).

3. Diet: His diet sound fine, nothing to cause concern. How frequently did you feed him though?

4. Substrate: BINGO! Was he fed in his in his vivarium?
Do you mean sphagnum moss like this:


If he were to ingest a piece of this, at such a small size, this could CERTAINLY have killed him. Moss will get stuck in the digestive track of the amphibian, especially such a small frog.

5. Your heating method sounds fine, but gauges arn't always that accurate, I use a 120$ Snap-On Digital laser temperature guage, and there's a big difference in readings, for an example, the temperature read 77F in my toads tank, I checked it with the digital laser guage, and it read 72.

6. As for bleach and fungi, this could have also caused a problem, not sure how fungi could have gotten in the tank, but I know amphibians are quite susceptible to bacterial and fungi spore bore infections.

As long as the bleach wasn't sprayed directly into the air, it should be fine. I cannot see the smell affecting it, unless it was very pungent?

Haha, why'd you apoligize? I asked for the information to try an help you out!

~Royce

[coffeebaron]

Ahh, I have a slight issue with needless apolgizing, call it some old fashioned British modesty

Unfortunatley I believe I may have underestimated the evaporation rate. His tank was an exoterra faunarium, exactly like this http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6083/...6c52ee0075.jpg

I used mosquito netting over the top, partly to avoid food escapee's and partly to help keep the moisture in, however I didn't always have the netting on.

I was feeding him around 3 small locust/ 1 wax worm/ 1 cricket every other day, though this fluctuated in terms of amount +/- 1 insect. Feeding response was good.

And as you enthusiasticly mentioned Royce, that is exactly the moss I used, and I did also feed him in the terrarium due to me wishing to limit stress on him. This is what I am leaning towards for causing his death, more so now. I almost wish I'd not buried the lil guy in order to disect him and check if there was an impactation, however I'm not sure I'd have felt too comfortable with this.

I had a feeling that the thermometer would not have been too accurate. This was my point about the Hydrometer gauges commonly available. I have seen a Lucky Reptile digital Hydrometer available, think it's about £49.99/around $75-80 I think in usa terms, possibly higher in Canadian $?

No the mould killer was never sprayed into the air in the room, only ever on a cloth outside and rubbed on the offending patches of damp. The smell was never that pungent.

I'll get those pics of his enclosure up later, and again, many thanks Royce, also I'll show the Whites tank, see if you have any suggestions. Lessons to be learnt from this unfortunate death.

[Poly]

Ahh, I have a slight issue with needless apolgizing, call it some old fashioned British modesty

Unfortunatley I believe I may have underestimated the evaporation rate. His tank was an exoterra faunarium, exactly like this http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6083/...6c52ee0075.jpg

I used mosquito netting over the top, partly to avoid food escapee's and partly to help keep the moisture in, however I didn't always have the netting on.

I was feeding him around 3 small locust/ 1 wax worm/ 1 cricket every other day, though this fluctuated in terms of amount +/- 1 insect. Feeding response was good.

And as you enthusiasticly mentioned Royce, that is exactly the moss I used, and I did also feed him in the terrarium due to me wishing to limit stress on him. This is what I am leaning towards for causing his death, more so now. I almost wish I'd not buried the lil guy in order to disect him and check if there was an impactation, however I'm not sure I'd have felt too comfortable with this.

I had a feeling that the thermometer would not have been too accurate. This was my point about the Hydrometer gauges commonly available. I have seen a Lucky Reptile digital Hydrometer available, think it's about £49.99/around $75-80 I think in usa terms, possibly higher in Canadian $?

No the mould killer was never sprayed into the air in the room, only ever on a cloth outside and rubbed on the offending patches of damp. The smell was never that pungent.

I'll get those pics of his enclosure up later, and again, many thanks Royce, also I'll show the Whites tank, see if you have any suggestions. Lessons to be learnt from this unfortunate death.

I have my baby pacman in the exact same size tank, and to keep his humidity up, I keep dish towles over the top vents, and just leave the side ones partially uncovered. The mosquito net would have worked great to keep in his food, but not humidity.

His diet sounds good, although, you might have wanted to try some nightcrawlers too.

Now your making me feel bad... I didn't mean to "enthusiasticly" mention the moss, I was just happy that we found a culprit.
I'm going to go ahead and say, he most likely, accidently ingested a strand of this moss when trying to eat an insect, this then got stuck in his intestine, caused impaction as the moss was bloackage and no food could pass, and this is what killed your poor little Horacio.

The chances of this being the cause of his death, IMO are very high, he had three things stacked against him (not because of you).

1. His size: He was still very small, so moss of this size in such a small frog would/could certainly cause impaction.

2. Moss: Most moss is dangerous as an impaction risk, unless it is short strand moss like sheet moss, but just the fact that it was dried, long strand, sphagnum moss (which I utterly despise) is a scary thought.

3. Feeding technique: With his combined small size, moss, and then the fact that he was fed in his vivarium with sphagnum moss present makes my believe 99.99% that he accidently ingested a piece of moss.

The humidity and temperature is not that hard to regulate in a small tank like that, just block off 90% of the vents with something like a dish towel or plastic wrap, and that will be sufficent to hold 70%-80% humidity.

I don't think the mold killer had anything to do with it, but the frog killer did... That's what dried sphgnum should be killed... frog killer moss... or impaction moss... -.-

Sure, the more photos the better!

I've worked with a vet for a a year now, just part time, (cleaning, helping out here and there, etc.) and she's taught my alot, I'd definitely liked to see the "auotopsy" if you will, photos to see if the moss was the cause.

The important thing, as you said is to learn from Horacio's truely unfortunate death!

Once again, I am very sorry for your loss!

[coffeebaron]

as promised Royce, heres a couple of the WTF enclosure


and here's Horacio's tank.



and this is a pic of my two whites as they are now- the little one is starting to catch the larger up- I posted some other pics of these in the treefrog forum.

[coffeebaron]

I just read your reply- sorry if I made you feel guilty, was meant more as in I felt reassured over finding a common agreement on his death (the smiley seems slightly inapropriate after that due to the subject matter!)

I will reply more comprehensivley in a little while, as i've a few things to tend to at this point in time, if you spot anything in the pics to bear in mind, please let me know.

Thank you again for all your help Royce

[dsmalex97]

Hey Wes just wondering, but aren't temp guns for measuring surface temps not ambient temps or no? I always see people using them to check basking spot surface temperatures, or body temperature.

[coffeebaron]

Hey Dsmalex97, good question! I've never used those guns myself, and to be honest, i've not much knowledge on them. If it's infra-red that it measures, then I would imagine that it could read ambient air temps, and if you wanted an accurate reading you could take a cross sample of various sections of the enclosure you were checking and average them

Be good to get a reply from some who maybe have used them