Scaphiophryne gottlebei tank

[clownonfire]

Hi again. I had taken the decision to not document the build of my vivs anymore... until now (that's right.... between the Atelopus hoogmoedi tank and this new project, I have finished a tank for a pair of D. azureus, which will be for my son's 7th birthday next month.

I'm planning to start building a tank for some Scaphiophryne gottlebei. The goal is to get on a breeding project, and join other hobbyists who've been involved with them, either on their own or with TWI. The reason I'm documenting this one is to exchange with those who are already are working with Ornate hoppers, try and gather as much information as possible, build a viable tank for the frogs. This will also be a sort of annexe to the on-going Scaphiophryne gottlebei thread on this board.

I'm hoping by doing so that this thread could hold crucial information on the specifics of housing/breeding tank for these frogs, to ensure or at least contribute to the survival of these species in captivity.

So there you go. We'll discuss tank size, substrate, lighting, plants, you name it.

Eric

[John]

I'm looking forward to this.

[LilyPad]

Very exciting!! I can't wait to follow this.

[clownonfire]

Thank you, John and Amy.

The basic requirements for the S. gottlebei tank will be based on the article by Mercurio V., Aprea G., Crottini A., Mattioli F., Randrianirina J. E., Razafindrabe T. J., Andreone F.:

The amphibians of Isalo Massif, southern-central Madagascar: high frog diversity in an apparently hostile dry habitat. (2008)

This article was kindly provided by Brent Brock, and can also be found here.

"Three main habitat types have been recognised for the Isalo Massif: (1) savannas, (2) open valleys, and (3) narrow canyons (Mercurio & Andreone, 2006). [...] (3) The rocky and montane part is crossed by canyons of various lengths, widths and depths, and with a variable water presence. Some canyons are very narrow with a sandy bed delimited by vertical rock walls. The habitat is dark and sometimes quite similar to a cave, with a rather low and constant temperature (19-22°C) and high humidity (about 100%). Within these close canyons, vegetation is absent (due to scarcity of light) or limited to a few isolated trees. Typical species of this habitat are Scaphiophryne gottlebei, Mantidactylus corvus, and M. noralottae." (p. 15-16).

And:

"Scaphiophryne gottlebei shows some singular ecological aspects exhibiting both fossorial and rupicolous habits. In fact, our observations confirmed its ability to climb up almost vertical canyon walls. On these walls some small holes, caused by the fall of small cobbles, are often used as refuges (Fig. 35). On other occasions individuals were found buried in the sand present on the bottom of the canyons." (p. 45).

When referring to the natural Madagascar habitat they live in, the species is quoted to prefer "small rocky pools within deep canyons [...] This species prefers small rocky pools within deep canyons. [...] Inside the canyon no direct sunlight was present, and the humidity and temperature was nearly constant (90-100% and around 19-21°C)." (p. 45).

When conferring with Corey, it was agreed that a mostly dry sand substrate would be used, with micro habitats made of patches of dry and moist sand, and bigger rocks to create cave-like burrowing sites for the frogs.

According to the article, no plants were found around the natural habitat of the S. gottlebei. This is where I would like anyone to chime in again. Do I keep the tank closer to the canyon environment described above, or are there local plants I could/should add to the biotope?

Eric

[bshmerlie]

Here's what I'm thinking. Cement canyon walls around the perimeter with little random holes around for them to climb into. A large rock structure in the middle to make an internal cave system. A fake foam rock piece that is attatched to the outside of the tank by magnets so you can pull it off to see inside the cave system to observe the frogs. I would also have the roof as a thin layer of cement with only a couple of blue LED lights for viewing (turn them on when needed. A water channel around the rock stucture and also going into the rock structure with a sandy bottom. No plants and no overhead light just the two LED's. This is a large Exo Terra maybe 36X24X24 or maybe custom built. What do you think?

[clownonfire]

I have created a Facebook group for the building of this tank.

The reason for the group is to have a collaborative efforts of members of different boards/forums members. I know because board loyalty it might be harder to partake on other boards, but I believe a collaborative efforts between us all could be extremely beneficial to the survival of these in captivity.

As I have explained on the group, my own loyalty is with Frog Forum, so most of what will be shared there will find its way here (and I've encouraged different members to do the same on their boards).

Eric

[jkooiman]

I've always dreamed of trying these out. I set up my Melanophryniscus tank in order to facilitate flooding, a set up a bit like I would envision a gottlebei tank. For what it's worth, here's a pic before cycling/drying/cooling/flooding took place, a process the plants did not survive Good luck on this project! JVK
[IMG][/IMG]

[clownonfire]

Some elements of this tank could to be adapted for a S. gottlebei tank (rocks, gravel, etc)... With your cycling/drying/cooling/flooding, not surprising the plants did not make it. At this point too, I'm very ambivalent about adding them.

Which species of Melanophryniscus did you work with? I'm keeping a Melanophryniscus stelzneri myself.

Thanks for sharing this picture, JVK. Feel free to join our Facebook group if you have a FB account!

Eric

[bshmerlie]

Eric, what size tank are you going to be putting them into?

[jkooiman]

Some elements of this tank could to be adapted for a S. gottlebei tank (rocks, gravel, etc)... With your cycling/drying/cooling/flooding, not surprising the plants did not make it. At this point too, I'm very ambivalent about adding them.

Which species of Melanophryniscus did you work with? I'm keeping a Melanophryniscus stelzneri myself.

Thanks for sharing this picture, JVK. Feel free to join our Facebook group if you have a FB account!

Eric

Well, I wouldn't call it "working with" exactly, I lost several individuals in the process, and didn't get so much as single call or amplexus when the tank was flooded.A total failure.

The M. stelzneri is the only species available at this point in time, though I believe more appropriate taxonomy may be Melanophryniscus klappenbachi.

I thought I joined the Facebook page awhile back, I'll check into it.

Looks like you have all the tools to do well with the gottlebei, that thread on here from earlier this week is probably one of the best threads I've seen anywhere in awhile. JVK

[clownonfire]

Eric, what size tank are you going to be putting them into?

I'm aiming for a 30-gallon, mostly because I think I will be using the height too. I have a similar design in my head to yours. The difference is that I would have a sand substrate, with moist and dry patches as mentioned, and water surrounded by rocks and sandy bottom, but all the cave-like structures would be made using big rocks that the S. gottlebei could climb on. This would basically give moist burrowing areas on the bottom level, but dryer cave-like holes to hide in on the upper levels.

[clownonfire]

Looks like you have all the tools to do well with the gottlebei, that thread on here from earlier this week is probably one of the best threads I've seen anywhere in awhile. JVK

JVK, thanks for the feedback. I'm quite thrilled with the response I had from it, and the generosity of the information that was shared by all involved parties.

[5280]

Hey Eric, my two, which I personally believe to be a 0.2, have done exceptionally well(as far as I can tell) in the 6 weeks I've had them. I keep them on a eco earth/sand mix which gets pretty dry in between mistings. I don't have any plants with them, as most of the research I did said their habitat is pretty much devoid of any. They are mostly fossorial to my knowledge, although they are occassionally active. They feed aggressively and mine are not shy eaters at all. While their habitat seems functional and they seem happy, I would really like to create an even better display habitat for them and would also eagerly participate in a captive breeding attempt. Good luck man, awesome little creatures.

[clownonfire]

Hey Eric, my two, which I personally believe to be a 0.2, have done exceptionally well(as far as I can tell) in the 6 weeks I've had them. I keep them on a eco earth/sand mix which gets pretty dry in between mistings. I don't have any plants with them, as most of the research I did said their habitat is pretty much devoid of any. They are mostly fossorial to my knowledge, although they are occassionally active. They feed aggressively and mine are not shy eaters at all. While their habitat seems functional and they seem happy, I would really like to create an even better display habitat for them and would also eagerly participate in a captive breeding attempt. Good luck man, awesome little creatures.

Brad, great to see you here (I was hoping you'd join in), and I'm also very happy to read that your two Ornate hoppers are doing well.

As for them being fossorial, you're quite right (see the excerpt on an earlier post).

Would you be able to show pics of your enclosure?

[clownonfire]

There has been a lot of things moving on the Facebook group. Discussions so far have been around lighting and a new one just started on soil.

On the lighting part, since these live almost in cave-like dwellings, it was suggested that zero to little light was needed. And at this point, the main reason we would add light would be to provide UVB to the hoppers (which will supply needed vitamins, especially D3), and beneficial, as per both Corey and Anthony Molnar.

As UVB rays are reduced by acrylic or glass, cutting a piece of either just above the light would be the ideal step.

A few ideas as to which light were given. These were all brought up (some would need to be Dimel in order to remove the UV filter - but it was also noted later on that some of these light might not even have UVB to them):

Eiko: Eiko-Ltd.com Products
Exo-Terra Sun Glo: Exo Terra : Sun Glo Halogen Spot / Halogen Daylight Lamp

Now no info on the Eiko can be found for UVB. As for the Exo-Terra Sun Glo, since the hoppers thrive in a temperature of 19-22C, these halogen bulbs might emit too much heat.

So at this point, we're contemplating only a Repti Glo 2.0 Compact Full Spectrum Terrarium Lamp on one side of the viv, as it seems to have all the UV requirements, and a lower wattage bulb would not create too much heat.

Any comments or thoughts?

Eric

[bshmerlie]

I thought frogs that lived in low light conditions didn't need UVB. If they live in caves where are they getting it in the wild?

[clownonfire]

I thought frogs that lived in low light conditions didn't need UVB. If they live in caves where are they getting it in the wild?

They is still some light getting in... At this point here, this is being discussed, and we have Michael Lawrence on it too, who's just temporarily back before his fight in Asia.

E.

[clownonfire]

The discussions on the Facebook group are hopping (hehe).

At this point, we're almost at a light consensus: Perhaps something like the Exo-Terra Repti Glo 2.0 Compact
Full Spectrum Terrarium Lamp or the Tropical 25 UVB Fluorescent Bulbs . The purpose of the light would be to mimic the little light being bounced off the walls of the cave-like dwelling of the hoppers, and if live plants are used, to provide the opportunity to photosynthesize.

Speaking of live plants, if any used, we're either thinking of a native Madagascar plant, Hypoestes phyllostachya, or the sturdy Pothos. The purpose of the plant would be to help with waste management, first and foremost. But as they are almost no plants in the surroundings of the S. gottlebei (although there is some vegetation) this is something still debated.

Size of tanks will be 30-33 gallons, with covered sidings.

Substrate. The discussions have branched into two: housing substrate and breeding substrate. Roman Slivinsky (mantisdragon91) suggests this mix (which he uses in his own S. gottlebei tank): pure sand- ExoTerra River sand, Coconut husk and river pebbles mixed in a 60/30/10 ratio. It is still debated.

As for the breeding tank requirements, PH is being debated, as for the substrate, water, etc. More to come.

Eric

[clownonfire]

The Facebook Scaphiophryne gottlebei group is going great!

Corey is about to summarize and gather all the info we got. We are looking into contacting some key researchers (first off is to see if TWI has contacted the same ones). Once all is gathered and written I'll present you the sum of the work, and we'll start building the tank for the hoppers.

Topics tackled this week:

1. Feeders: Roman stated that because of the non abundance of food in their natural environment, they are not picky eaters. They have been fed fruit flies (Hydei, Melongaster, Buzzati), springtails, pinheads...

2. Substrate: Matthew Mirabello brought up a picture of S. gottlebei burrowed in a soil that gets hard and dry, like desert sand (hard on the surface, moist below). Both Corey and Matthew suggested something like the Arizona soil, which "retains moisture but also is "hard" when wet allowing it to be molded into a burrow " (Matt).

More to come.

Eric

[clownonfire]

And another piece of info that has somewhat of an impact on the breeding project (and if anyone else has other info on the following, please let us know):

Corey reported after some reading that in the wild they reach maturity at one year (the next flood season after they morph), and they usually don't make it to two seasons. The oldest they found breeding were 2 years old (never found any older specimens of these frogs). So lifespan of 1-2 years. And the more explosive breeders have a shorter lifespan.

I will have to challenge Corey's info on the latter as I read on Edge: "Malagasy rainbow frogs live for 4-7 years and this species becomes sexually mature after 1-2 years".
E.