Geriatric White's Tree Frog

[Archeopterix]

Hi all,

I have an very old Whites treefrog that has been starting to display some serious signs.

Timmy is very old, I got this frog in 1993. He's always had something wrong with his face (a hole in his face above the nostril giving him the apperence of 3 nostrils) and because of this he wouldn't sell. I thought it would regenerate but it never did. I think he'd lived in the pet store over a year when the owner decided he would dispose of him by feeding him to a snake. Now I'd wanted a White's for some time and offered to home him so I took him home (the snake got its usual frozen mouse).

Anyway I was just taking some pictures of him and I saw what looked like blood on his side (picture on the left) so I took him out to examine him, maybe a cricket had given him a good bite or something, but it wasn't bleeding, whatever it is it is subcutaneous. He seems to be in good spirits, is still ribbiting whan I play music, and exploring his cage and so on, but since he is usually nocturnal I don't know how long he's had this, it may be as long as a month even, since at daytime he pretty much stays in his coconut house.

Is this normal aging in a frog? H'es always had very translucent skin around the part where the green goes to white but I haven't seen this kind of pattern on his sides before. I think I won't buy those "bug tubs" any longer, I think those crickets stuffed in a plastic tub like that for weeks on end must make a heap of bacteria.

Unfortunately I don't think I can afford a herp vet right now because I have to go to a pain specialist at the end of the month for me that will cost $290 (1/3 of my monthly income as I am on disability for the time being). I am going to phone around herp vets for prices, maybe he just needs a shot of tetracyclin or I can dust some on a cricket. If it's something serious though I'll do what I can to take him in but I hope his liver isn't failing or anything. I'm really worried and I'm not looking forward to the day he goes to the Great Swamp in the Sky.

On the left is the first shot that made me think he was bleeding, the right is a closeup of the kind of bruisey look:



Is this normal for really old frogs? Like liver spots or vericose veins in humans?

Thanks in advance!

[Kurt]

Could be a bacterial infection, but I wouldn't treat with tetracycline. My understanding is that it kills frogs.

[Archeopterix]

I'll see if I can get him into the herp vet on Monday.

ACK! I read that as "the bacterial infection kills forgs" not "tetracycline kills frogs". I hope this won't kill him. I did a very throrough cage clean yesterday, it was due for one but was nowhere as dirty as other showcase vivariuums I've seen in stores (I've seen ones with mushrooms growing inside and even one that had become overrun with centipedes!).

[John]

You're right in thinking he's very old - 16 years for a treefrog is a very long life. If he is eating alright I would tend to think it's not a bacterial infection but more likely some problem to do with old age, as you guess yourself. In this case I don't think there's much you can do for him except make sure he's comfortable. With a bit of luck it may get better. However a trip to the vet, if only for their diagnosis, is recommended.

[Archeopterix]

Well he's 16+something years old. I did get him in '93 but he had been in the store for a long time and wasn't selling (I worked in that store and was one of the people who cleaned his cage so I was familiar with him and he's been there since before I started), and keep in mind that he was already finished metamorphosized there (that is, he had no residual tadpole tail or anything). So he is really quite old.

[into]

It's nice to see a pet frog live into old age.Perhaps you have a lot of knowledge to share with others here. Sorry he's not looking well.

[Archeopterix]

It's nice to see a pet frog live into old age.Perhaps you have a lot of knowledge to share with others here. Sorry he's not looking well.

Hehe thanks. I've been posting around in some of the White's questions. I also have a corn snake that I got in 1991, and a blue and gold macaw who wil be 20 next year (although that isn't old for a parrot). Both the frog and the macaw were rescues.

[into]

Hehe thanks. I've been posting around in some of the White's questions. I also have a corn snake that I got in 1991, and a blue and gold macaw who wil be 20 next year (although that isn't old for a parrot). Both the frog and the macaw were rescues.

Oh, I love parrots, but had to get rid of my Nanday Conure because he was too noisey where I lived and I haven't had the money to get another since I really really want a Hyacinth Macaw.. it's always been my favorite bird, but since it's endangered and the price of a used car, I can't get one.

[Archeopterix]

Oh, I love parrots, but had to get rid of my Nanday Conure because he was too noisey where I lived and I haven't had the money to get another since I really really want a Hyacinth Macaw.. it's always been my favorite bird, but since it's endangered and the price of a used car, I can't get one.

Hyacinths are one of the only animals that are actually benefitting from rainforest destruction, oddly enough. Its because they can crack the palm nuts that passes thourough the digestive system of the cattle. When looking at parrots, I wanted a blue front amazon, but when you rescue, you don't really get to choose what you get. I did end up fostering a blue front for a while but he and my macaw didn't get along so I found a good home for him.

Same goes for Timmy my White's, if given the choice I would have gone for a blue phase, but he desperately needed a home so here he is (and has been for a good long while).

[into]

if given the choice I would have gone for a blue phase, but he desperately needed a home so here he is (and has been for a good long while).

I'm a bit confused by the whole blue phase whites thing. I have a juvenile whites, Dumper who is a bluish green (today he's grey) and my female whites, Jade ranges from green bean color to a bright yellow/green. I thought I read somewhere that the bluish ones come from Australia and the green ones come from Indonesia. My whites are clearly different in shape and color. Would my Dumper be considered a blue phase?

[Archeopterix]

I'm a bit confused by the whole blue phase whites thing. I have a juvenile whites, Dumper who is a bluish green (today he's grey) and my female whites, Jade ranges from green bean color to a bright yellow/green. I thought I read somewhere that the bluish ones come from Australia and the green ones come from Indonesia. My whites are clearly different in shape and color. Would my Dumper be considered a blue phase?

Indonesian ones are the thinner longer ones and the Dumpys are An Australian species (subspecies(?)) in which the ones that the females can get really really fat. Blue phase I think is just selective breeding. http://art-gecko4.tripod.com/whitest...caresheet.html

Here's another forum with members displaying their blue phase, if those pics are any indication, the blue goes away over time. You could try gut loading your crickets with something that has lots of blue in it (boiled red cabbage goes very blue), like the way people feed lots of parsley to iguanas to keep them green, or feed paprika to red phase canaries to keep them red, and the way flamingos are only pink because of the red brine shrimp they eat. I don't know what food encourages blueness though.

Blue phase also might be factored in with might be a subtractive color so color feeding might not be possible to obtain it, or you might hae to have the frog with the genetics for blueness AND keep up with the keratine free diet (like the way that blue budgies and parrotlets etc get a blue phase by geneticly elimininating the yellow keritine creating a karatine-albinism).

Since the green does seem to return the frogs might be getting the keratine from something in the diet of the food (ie the crickets) who are likely raised on fish food and various greens and vegetables (like carrots), all of which are high in keratine.

I don't really know about the blue phase whites, I'm just making educated hypothesis.

[Archeopterix]

Could be a bacterial infection, but I wouldn't treat with tetracycline. My understanding is that it kills frogs.

I've been doing some reading today and it seems like (as I thought) tetracycline is the most common medicine perscribed for frogs, such as in this article about Redleg. Are you positive you weren't thinking of penacillin?

It surprises me they are recommending neosporin though, as anything with vaseline would prevent that area of the skin to breathe. You would think that any vasiline/petroleum jelly based producte would be very bad for anything that breathes through its skin.

[Kurt]

Every time I have used neosporin with an amphibian, I have lost that amphibian.

[Archeopterix]

Every time I have used neosporin with an amphibian, I have lost that amphibian.

Yeah you would think plain old white flour and wter would make a better styptic powder, since it has an antibacterial property and acts as a good clotting agent.

I will phone the herp vet first thing tomorrow. Wish me luck that I can afford the bill.

Edit: is says that redleg is infectous, but Timmy hasn't had contact with other frogs in over a decade, unless it can be transferred somehow via crickets. I hope I don't have to start raising cricktes, man they are smelly even in the best conditions. I've raised preying mantises and hatched luna moths and and so on when i worked in a lab, that was fun.

[Kurt]

My bill was around $65 today and that was for three animals.

[into]

My bill was around $65 today and that was for three animals.

Is that about average? under $100? I was raised in a family where vet was never an option. we had a cat with a broken leg when I was a kid and my father put him outside! He survived and stuck around... with a backwards leg.

[Kurt]

Yeah, thats around average for me.

[Archeopterix]

Yeah, thats around average for me.

I'm expecting it to be much higher. My macaw has a light upper resprtory infection and it was $260+ meds. I'm hoping it won't be over $100. Exotic vets are expensie up here in Alberta.

I just checked on timmy and his breathing seems very rapid compared to normal. I hope he isn't in pain. Maybe I should spray some rain in his house.

[Ebony]

Archeopterix...Im very sorry your frog is sick. At that age he is very precious. I wish you and your frog the best of luck.

[John]

Prices really depend on the vet. Kurt seems to have a decent human being for a vet - in the US such vets are rare.