Too many frogs dying

[clownonfire]

For the past month or so, I've been reading too many posts about frogs dying. And often enough, the death is not because of the animal, because the animal came in sick, or bad genes or, or, or... Often enough, the death is a consequence of poor husbandry: wrong environment for a frog species, too humid, not humid enough, not enough plants, a horizontal tank for a tree frog, feeding large crickets to thumbnail frogs... And we need to do something about this...

A moderator on this board asked me when realizing that there were many White's and Red Eyed tree frogs dying lately: Are tree frogs really a good frog for beginners? Well, my answer is NO. The same as a dart frog would not be a good frog for a beginner: UNLESS you, the beginner will take the proper care of your frog. YOU, the beginner, will need to do some research before you get a frog, or make fast adjustments if you already have a frog and realize the requirements for your frog are not met.

Would YOU keep a dog inside 4 days in a row without taking it to the park? Feed your cat a broccoli? No, you wouldn't. Yes, a frog looks cute at the pet shop and looks like it would make a lovely pet. But frogs have very specific requirements. They will be hardy only if you meet them. I am completely aware that when you see a tree frog at the pet shop in a very small enclosure without any branches you will end up thinking that is what such a frog needs. It's not. If you are on this board, and ask questions before you get a frog or because something seems wrong with your frogs, please, take our help openly. We want to help, but foremost, we do not want the frog to die. If we say your frog needs a vet, don't answer: I don't have XX$ to spend, what else can be done.... Nothing else can be done. Your frog will die.

Frog Forum is a board for all spectrum of frog enthusiasts. It's a great place for general information. And I think this is why many of you are here. We are friendly, but many of us here are experts, and we want your frogs to be healthy.

I cannot continue to read these posts and stay silent. Ask questions, inquire, and then DO WHAT'S BEST FOR YOUR FROG. If you were on Dendroboard, moderators and members wouldn't hesitate to tell you YOU ARE KILLING YOUR FROG.

So I'm sorry to say: You are killing your frog. Let us help you save it. Please.

If you think a frog is not for you at this point, it's ok. There's nothing wrong with that. Give your frog away to someone who will take care of it the way it needs to be cared for.

Eric

PS: I will bump this thread as long as I can, so that many of you read this.

[bshmerlie]

I have a couple of things to add. We have all made mistakes....as newbies we all came to Frog Forum to make sure that we are doing everything we can do to ensure that are frogs live healthy and happy lives. Remember frogs are not like a dog or a cat who can live comfortably within our environmental conditions. For the most part the frogs we are dealing with here are tropical. That means we need to duplicate a little piece of the rainforest and keep it stable in our homes. Think of it more like a saltwater aquarium. Without the perfect balance the fish will get sick and die. Well...the same with frogs. They need their tropical enclosure to mimic the environment they are coming from. That's going to mean specific temps ..a specific humidity....the proper substrate...live plants...proper lighting for those plants....the proper size and type of food....supplements for the food. ...etc ...etc

Most frogs are not difficult to keep. BUT you do have to meet very specific environmental needs. You also have to be willing to make changes quickly if something is not working. Don't think members are being mean if they don't think your setup is adequate for your frog. Listen to suggestions and make the appropriate changes. Don't procrastinate...some frogs wont make it that long ifnot properly cared for. Once the frog is sick its so much harder. Let's try and make sure it doesn't come to that.

[berksmike]

Whole heartedly agree with that mate . It is frustrating when people post asking basic husbandry questions after they have already got their frog/toad. Happens on all the forums.
Best way to keep your frogs alive is research research research BEFORE buying.
We all lose frogs from time to time in this hobby - as with any pets - but it shouldnt be down to ignorance of the individual species needs. If in doubt, ask - preferably before you've opened your wallet.

[ViperJr]

Even though I'm new to frogs, I've had different pets for a long time. This is probably the best post I've read in a great while.

[UncleChester]

I was noticing the many death announcements as well. Anyone getting a new species of pet should be well acquainted with their care and be fully prepared to give it before their pet goes through their front door. Great frog care info is freely available here after all, as well as lots of info for even the thriftiest vivarium builder.

Feed your cat a broccoli? No, you wouldn't.

No broccoli, but one of mine gets squash. (In small doses and with the approval of our vet of course)

[clownonfire]

I myself started being serious about frogs less than a year ago, although we did have a Cuban tree frog and fire-bellied toads which were all well taken cared for.

When I got a bumblebee walking toad and a pair of Ranitomeya ventrimaculatus, I had done research before, and not everything was up to par. I had amazing help by Eric Walker for my BBWT, and Michael Lawrence for the Vents. And believe me all, getting feedback from Michael (Poison Beauties) is not always easy to read, and can be sometimes drastically to the point.... But he brought me to another level. Getting new frogs now is a whole process for me. Is a certain species the right one for me? Can I afford to keep another one, or to buy everything that the species will need? In lament's terms: can I go all the way when it comes to owning the desired frogs?? If yes, then I'll move forward. If no, I'll refrain myself.

As many of you know, a week ago I acquired a trio of Atelopus hoogmoedi. Man, the reading I had to do before starting building the tank was quite something. And as info on this species is quite scarce on the net, I had to bug a few experts on different boards until I felt I had ALL the proper info on how to take care of them. Furthermore, I ended up having a female, which is great, but which also requires different husbandry. So Friday, I had to buy a new tank, and build one as fast as possible to do everything possible so the gravid female can lay her eggs before dying...

My situation is extreme. I am fully involved in the hobby. But readers, and newcomers, make sure you know what will be needed of you when owning a frog.... Even if owning just one...

I don't want to linger more as this post is already longer than I wanted it to be... But with all the knowledge I have acquired on frogs, I would still not own a pacman frog, or an African Clawed frog even if some say they are easy to care for, AS I DO NOT POSSESS THE INFORMATION NEEDED TO CATER TO THEIR NEEDS.

Let's turn this around. I will help you. Cheri and all other moderators will help too. On this thread, there's berksmike and Uncle Chester that are EXTREMELY valuable resources to this forum. And so many others.... Don't be afraid to ask.

I would be more afraid of our reactions if you did not ask and post about the death of your frog....

Eric

[Tripe46]

Great thread! Everyone should read this.

[Tony]

I called this a couple months ago when PetCo started the $20 RETF sale. If you're going to buy stressed out wild caught frogs you better know how to acclimate them. Unfortunately it seems that most of the people who have been buying them are inexperienced bargain hunters who get to find out the hard way that cheap frogs are rarely a bargain.

[clownonfire]

Thank you Tony. You're actually another great resource on this board that could be very helpful to newbies.

[DonLisk]

Great thread Eric. Sad part is, it will not end with the poor information provided a new pet owner at pretty much any of the major chain stores.

From being told you can mix species, to your comments on poor setups, much of this stems from the point of sale and their lack of interest and knowledge in the poor animal they are putting in the customers hands.
The customer thinks they are learning enough right at the point of sale. They come home and over a few weeks fall in love with their newly acquired friend, and then soon after find they have done it all wrong and are now coming here to get our help.

If your reading this thread, take the advice given and run with it. If you bought a pet, its in your hands to properly care for it. Build a proper setup, don't ignore its needs, and provide the environment the animal requires.

[berksmike]

Maybe a precis of this thread should be posted as a sticky in all sections?

[clownonfire]

Maybe a precis of this thread should be posted as a sticky in all sections?

It's a great idea. We could also add a link to the thread when welcoming new members. Might sound like a harsh, Hi and welcome to Frog Forum, but being proactive could save some frogs.

[bshmerlie]

I don't think "You're killing your frogs" is the best way to welcome people. How about just the basic care of a frog attached to the welcome post.

[clownonfire]

I don't think "You're killing your frogs" is the best way to welcome people. How about just the basic care of a frog attached to the welcome post.

I personally would still add a carefully worded intro saying "lately, there's been a lot of death.... if you have any question or if we can help you in any way...." sort of way. 24 hours can make a difference in the life of a frog.

Similar to those warning messages we have in instances of heat waves or storm seasons....

[larry b]

Great thread.

[bshmerlie]

Yeah well....wait until summer hits. You're going to have a rash of people cooking their frogs because the heat catches them off guard. That's why I made that post awhile back. So people start turning off the heatmats before its too late.

[mommyof4froglovers]

I am thankful to this site. I got my daughter her whites tree frog, asked petco all the questions and did research at home and still was wrong on so many things. We are soon to get him a bigger tank it is to small but he is only 2 1/2 inces and is ok at this point. We are talking about what we want to do with his tank and if we want to get him a friend. I told my husband and he agreed we are going to be asking lots of questions from you guys first. I think this post was needed.

[clownonfire]

I am thankful to this site. I got my daughter her whites tree frog, asked petco all the questions and did research at home and still was wrong on so many things. We are soon to get him a bigger tank it is to small but he is only 2 1/2 inces and is ok at this point. We are talking about what we want to do with his tank and if we want to get him a friend. I told my husband and he agreed we are going to be asking lots of questions from you guys first. I think this post was needed.

This is great feedback. Education is the best way of improving husbandry. And being willing to learn and improve is also of key.

Eric

[Kurt]

If we say your frog needs a vet, don't answer: I don't have XX$ to spend, what else can be done.... Nothing else can be done. Your frog will die.

God, I am so frustrated with this kind of response. It's one of the reasons I don't answer too many posts lately. Used to get the same kind of responses when I worked in the pet industry and suggested the customer should buy a book. I often got a "no thank you, don't need it."

I heard Kurt Schatzl, president of the NEHS, once say "If you can afford a vet, then you can't afford the animal." Kurt is a reptile guy, but this applies to all classes of animals.

I would also add, often when a frog or other wild animal (remember ALL frogs are wild animals) shows signs of illness its often too late to do anything about it. Prevention is the best kind of medicine. Well, besides laughter, but most frogs just don't get my jokes.

Oh and the reason you are seeing so many White's and red-eyes, is because that's what the big chain stores are pushing these days. Particularly White's.

[clownonfire]

Bump. I've been reading about more sick frogs today...