Keeping multiple dart frog species in a large vivarium

[Philsuma]

I've seen it done in zoos, and that famous Discus Breeder, Jack Wattley would house them together in very large display tanks, just not for breeding them ( though he breeds them as well.)
.

When you have a degree in Herpetology, have logged 10 years as a curator of animals at a zoological institution and or have about 100 years experience like Jack....then by all means, have at it.

If you are a newbie and have joined a forum a few months ago and don't even have 2 different species worth of experience under your belt....

If you have to ask about mixing....that says it all right there.

Please don't manufacture excuses with bad analogies......

[Paul Rust]

When you have a degree in Herpetology, have logged 10 years as a curator of animals at a zoological institution and or have about 100 years experience like Jack....then by all means, have at it.

If you are a newbie and have joined a forum a few months ago and don't even have 2 different species worth of experience under your belt....

If you have to ask about mixing....that says it all right there.

Please don't manufacture excuses with bad analogies......

Nicely done Phil. It is a pleasure to see you here, I'm positive these people here will love your experience and input. They have been very pleasant to me. WELCOME!!

[Rukufox]

Okay I see this is an old thread but I have another point to be brought up.
I understand the importance of keeping a bloodline pure, but where would the world be if species never cross breed? There wouldn't be half the species there are to day. Now don't get me wrong, I'm still conserned for the species of each individual frog's needs and such. My point is that whether in nature or captivity two frogs from slightly varying subspecies are prone to cross breed eventually. I don't think she should intentionally try to breed "mutts" but it's not a bad thing if it did happen by chance.

[IrishRonin]

ok so im not saying one way or another on a mixed incloser because i have mixed feeling about that both ways but what I do have to say is if nature has taught us anything-Anything close enough to breed, will breed. On the other hand humans have distroyed enough things on this planet lets not intetionally do more harm.

[ConVexity]

When you have a degree in Herpetology, have logged 10 years as a curator of animals at a zoological institution and or have about 100 years experience like Jack....then by all means, have at it.

If you are a newbie and have joined a forum a few months ago and don't even have 2 different species worth of experience under your belt....

If you have to ask about mixing....that says it all right there.

Please don't manufacture excuses with bad analogies......

Best comment here
straight to the point

[Rukufox]

I'm not trying to be rude I'm just saying that it feels a tad bit ignorant to completely ignore all other possibilities. Like I said before I don't think they should INTENTIONALLY breed mix species, but there is a whole nother world that remains undiscovered when you refuse to even consider it. How many breeds of dog do you think there would be if they never cross bred, really any animal. Cats, fish, birds, lemurs and so on. I'll admit that I am no where near an expert in amphibian care, I understand the importance of keeping a pure bloodline especially in a dying species. I must say though, if Charles Darwin taught us anything it's that life has to evolve it'self to survive.

[IrishRonin]

Long live Darwin! In the words of ian malcolm (jurrasic park) "life will find a way" sorry couldn't help it

[SNAKE]

You can keep two sepecies togother, ONLY IF the tank is very well planted, good in size, and if the two species are different.
So a cohabitation is possible with tinctorius azureus for example (wich will occupate the "low" part of the tank) and a represantant of the Ranitomeya genus (wich will occupate the "high" part of the tank). You see, in this case, there is no possible risk of breedint amoung the two different species.
Note that your tank is not VERY big. It's the average size tank for more than a trio.

[mmattys30]

Can't you just keep all males or am I missing something here.??? As

[Rukufox]

Can't you just keep all males or am I missing something here.??? As

The main consern of the debate is the cross breeding, but different species have different levels of agression too. Like with fish, it wouldn't be smart to put a whole bunch of males together just because they have a different fin type, they would still tear eachother apart. It would be very important to make sure you don't cross two highly aggressive species together, or even frogs from two completely different habitates at risk of them poisoning eachother with their natural toxins.

[bren]

sorry to butt in here i was enjoying reading this thread as i want same kinda info n the comment about wishin the snake people would stop the hybrids erm im a snake person n i am with you on that natural is the most beautiful am willing to accept now n again something nice come from crossbreeding but 99 percent ov the time its jus wrong

[flybyferns]

sorry to butt in here i was enjoying reading this thread as i want same kinda info n the comment about wishin the snake people would stop the hybrids erm im a snake person n i am with you on that natural is the most beautiful am willing to accept now n again something nice come from crossbreeding but 99 percent ov the time its jus wrong

Hi Bren,
Probably 99.9% of the time.
This is a great - older -thread. I like your response - anyway ! Keep it going!
Personally, I really enjoy my darts just they way they are. I can not imagine being responsible for crossbreeding.
It's not like we have a lack of choices. We have ? 225 + species that range in almost every color imaginable.

Edit- I'll clarify this by saying that between 99.9 % and 100 % of the time is for the expert trying to save a species !

Welcome to Frog Forum
Lynn

[Heatheranne]

I'd have to agree. Sometimes cross breeding can lead to bad genes. This has been proven in some pacman mixes.

[mmattys30]

I have a 90x45x90 and keep 6 terribis and 22 tricolours and 2 lowlands and they all live happily together with no problems at all.

[deranged chipmunk]

wow, these threads seem to re-born on every forum related to darts....lol when i first started looking into frogs, i was definitely all for mixing. now, i am kind of on the fence, leaning towards no.

while many arguments could be made one way or the other, i think the darts purist's point of view is a bit convoluted (i think is the word i am searching for). as i understand it, the point of keeping species blood lines pure because of their declining numbers in the wild, is pure, unadulterated poppycock. IF that were true, then i ask this one question of those people: How many of your frogs have you donated to help restore the species? and i don't mean to just randomly release frogs into the wild, but how many have donated their frogs to conservation programs designed for just that purpose?

now, the absolute best reasoning i have read, and i truly agree with this stand point, is for quality control. i believe that if a person want to purchase a d. tinc. 'new river', than that is what they should receive. not a hybrid that was advertised to be a new river. the problem lies in irresponsibility of the frog keepers who say "i'm gonna mix, but it's just gonna be for me", which in turn becomes a sale because the owner needs cash. now that hybrid is out there and could possibly contaminate the gene pool of other's collections.

now,i propose this question to purists, Why are you worried about hybrids in the marketplace, don't you purchase your frogs from reputable breeders? i'm sure the purists are NOT buying their frogs off of Juan at the bottom of the off ramp (I got oranges, mangos and Dendrobates!), so exactly how would their gene pool get contaminated?

ok, now as far as fighting and aggression, that should be a no brainer, although it's not to some people.

i think hybrids DO have a place in this hobby. provided they are bred by experts in the field. i mean come on, who wouldn't want to see their "terrestrial dart" climbing up into the top parts of their tank because they have a bit of Leuc in them. but see, i'm thinking like a beginner in darts (because i am). a lot of people are put off by the shyer species. well, with hybridization, those "pretty blue ones" that are only for the hardcore frogger, will most likely be purchased by someone who will love and care for them, just as if they were pure line. provided of course, if boldness is a trait passed on. THAT is why i said by experts. The average Joe, should not try this at home. but i am also a realist who knows it is happening as i type this.

and last but not least, parasites and toxicity.......well, no arguments from me on that one....LOL

also, may i remind you that i am the person who think it's poppycock that frogs will drown if water is higher than their chin (sick frogs excluded of course), so i may just be full of ****. and just for the record, i am an advocate of single species tanks. i believe you get a more wonderful understanding of your frogs behaviors and habits when they are by themselves.

[flybyferns]

I'm thinking, those interested, and who are following this thread and these current posts .... need to read post #8
Alex has taken the responsible approach (and response) to mixing if inclined to do so.

[deranged chipmunk]

oh, i definitely agree. and i have seen it done very well by some hobbyists, mostly european. i've also seen darts with anoles and geckos and such. i still wouldn't do it, but it has and can be done. in fact i remember reading a newsletter by LLL Reptile, i believe where they briefly mention housing Leucs and certain species of ranitomeya. but they mostly warn away from it.

[Geo]

While I have no experience mixing dart frog species I have done mixed setups before. My longest running habitat here has oriental fire belly toads, chinese fire belly newts, and american green tree frogs. The Toads and Newts come from very similar biomes / regions so I didn't think there should be any issues. The Green Tree Frogs were a last minute pet shop rescue in which I had nowhere to put them so decided to see what would happen if I added them. I kept an eye on them all for a week and there has never been an issue a year later.

The tree frogs hang out in the top of the habitat in the plants and branches while the toads remain water / land based and the newts the same depending on time of the year. From observation it is clear to me that they are all aware of each other but none of them have ever had any conflicts. I have a lot of branches creating different climbing levels should they want to hang out by themselves for awhile, plants adding foliage for hiding spots, two different land masses and so on. To be honest the tree frogs are only seen at feeding time and many times I have seen the newts sleeping on top of the toads so no problems.

I generally wouldn't recommend mixing unless you are willing to spend a certain amount of time in the beginning to watch for any problems. You would need to be diligent for a few weeks until they relax a bit and their natural tendencies start to show. That is when things may get interesting.

[DartEd]

I'm a purist when it comes to this issue. Totally putting aside crossbreeding, the aggression and stress that can be attributed to certain species of darts is enough to scare me into keeping different species apart. We have to keep in mind that we are all in this hobby because we love the species we choose to keep and want to see the species advance and proliferate. I don't think I'm out of line to assume that no one in this thread wants to see an animal suffer. My opinion is , why take the chance?

[Heatheranne]

I have to agree with DartEd. As much as I'd love to keep a rainbow of frogs together, the risks outweigh the benefits. Being they are so small it's not hard to have more than one tank if you desire more. Or, build a large tank with a siliconed glass divider.