Selling contracts?

[Immortal]

I was just thinking about if I do end up breeding my red eyes. It'd be an extra source of $ for myself and give me something to do. It'd also make them more available in an area that doesn't seem to barely ever have them.

But I'm a little worried about one thing. I wouldn't want to sell any to a person or a pet store that may not end up having them in the right conditions. I couldn't just sell it to anyone not knowing if they will take proper care of it or not.

So I'm wondering, does anyone ever make contracts for purchasing agreements? I had to fill out a contract when I bought Haiku, which gave the 14 day guarantee. Weird thing is they are the pet store, they "should" be telling me how to take care of what I'm purchasing. But he was in a short tank with 2 lamps above him which may have been making him too dried out, who knows? He was in with 2 other frogs native to Canada and was fed during the day so now he's confused to when is day and when is night.

Would it be unreasonable to have contracts for selling? I'd like thoughts, opinions and ideas on this please. I'd only want the froglets to go to the best of homes, I wouldn't send them to their doom!

Edited to add:

And what if the pet store signs a contract stating they will take care of it, they can still sell it to anyone who will pay for it... Hmm.. maybe selling to pet stores isn't the way to go.

[clownonfire]

It's a great question, Lor. I am also planning in breeding different morphs of terribs within the next 2 years. And like you, I plan to sell only to well aware enthusiasts, beginner or expert. I do not need the extra income per se, although it is always nice, but I want to breed consciously and make sure that I am doing it for the good of the hobby.

Here's a thread I started a few weeks back about pet shops. There are somme comments that are related to your queries:

http://www.frogforum.net/comments/70...et-stores.html

Eric

[Immortal]

Thanks for the link, checking that out now. I don't know how well I'd do selling with just advertising myself, expecially in my area. I don't know if I'd want to ship any frogs because frankly I do not trust shipping companies. I ordered a tarantula once that was 3 day shipping and it took 3 weeks to get to me! It was only a couple hours away! I am lucky it was still alive, but she dove right for the water dish.

[wesleybrouwer]

It won't mean anything to make up a contract.
It;s not like you are going to check up on hundreds of people that bought you're frogs.
If you sell it to a pet store, who knows where they end up.

All you can do when selling is providing as much as information as possible.
Maybe make an A4 caresheet list and transition paper in 1,
i don;t know if you guys have to work with that?

Just provide you're name and adress, provide the Origin, year/month of birth, wich generation it is from WC (F1,F2,F3 etc.), number of animals sold and maybe the sex when possible etc.
You can also include you're email adress, so when they need to ask something, they end up with you, or just give the FrogForum adress,
this will lead them to this board providing them more then enough knowledge and in the same time expand the community

Besides that, just give in the most important care points to you.
For example:

-number of animals in what size of a tank and what kind of set-up,
-if it is an animal you breed in couples or groups,
-if multiple males and or females pose problems state that,
-temperature, humidity, lighting, feeding, and other things you find important to the care of these animals.

More then that, you can't do.
And it;s more then most people would do when selling their offspring.

[Immortal]

Thanks for the tips. I think a care sheet is a good idea, to even go over it with the buyer as well. I don't know if I could bring myself to sell to a pet store, since I have no idea who'd even end up with the frogs :S

[UncleChester]

I like Wesley's idea of including a caresheet of the most important details and a link to here (and to the detailed Red-Eyed care sheet). Seems like an easy thing for a store to do yet I've almost never seen it done.

As a bonus, you could also include (or sell) baby photos of their frogs. People love baby photos of their pets. You can have a picture of a bunch of eggs with an arrow pointing to one. Hah. Or of their parents, or siblings, etc.

There are reptile/amphibian shows you can go to for an increased customer base if you want to sell directly. Toronto has a big one twice a year (and Mississauga apparently, and coming to Kitchener) Ontario Reptile & Exotic Pet Expo and there is a smaller one in the Waterloo area whose name I forget, though it is mostly geckos and snakes (I went to the last one). They probably have vendor fees though, so it might not be worth it. You could probably try selling photos and frog art as well as frogs. Just an idea.

[clownonfire]

And trust your feeling, Lor. Visit stores if you decided to sell to some. And chose who you sell to. When I bought my vents, the breeder (associated with Understory Enterprises), would not sell them to me until he knew I had a viable fruit flies culture and he saw pictures of my viv. And for me, it showed how serious he was about his frogs. It might sound harsh to some, but for me, it made me trust him more.

[Immortal]

Hahahaha an arrow pointing to an egg, that's your frog!

I have thought about the expos, they are quite far from me (I'm in Wallaceburg south of Sarnia on the border of US). It'd be a long drive for gas, plus to rent a booth I am not sure if it'd be worth it or not. I guess only way to find out is to try. But it is also a long haul for all the animals, expecially if they don't sell and go through stress for nothing.

I'd prefer someone wanting to make sure I had something properly set up and knew about something before they sold it to me. That shows they care it is going to a good home.

[wesleybrouwer]

Here is an example of what i give to people new to the frogs.
It's translated rather quick, so please forgive me any mistakes

[JSG]

Lor, little sis, I may get you all fired up now, but here goes....did you not get your latest froggy from a pet store?
Pet stores are just like people in that you get the good, the bad, the ugly and the good. It is up to us, the buying public to vote with our wallets. If you don't like the way they operate, then just don't support them!
Also, you and I have spoken about different forums before...again, you get the god, the bad....etc. Now at one of the other "pet" related forums I am a member of, they promoted and were very adamant about sales contracts...I found this a scream.
So ok, I sign your contract and promise I will do anything and everything you say and require from me then and there. I load the frogs and then drive to where ever it is I hail from...and then what?
That contract is not worth the paper it is written on, and I'm talking from a legal aspect, because:
1. With selling anything ownership no longer resides with the previous owner,
2. The new owner can do as he / she pleases with his / her purchase,
3. It would be different (MAYBE) if no money changes hands, as then their would be no sales agreement which means ownership of the item has changes.
I really got the feeling from the breeders and sellers of these other animals (forum I referred to above) that they want to keep newcomers to their little "old boys / girls club" circle out and that their contracts was just to frighten people off and away.
I fully understand where you come from (please don't get me wrong), but please remember that in the prefect world their would be no animal shelters and the world would not have global warming...we however live in the reality of the here and now, and that means that yes, sometimes bad things do happen and that we are only responsible for the things in our care to the best of our abbilities.

I fully agree with Mr. Bouwer, give as much info as possible, share the links and info how to get here to this forum, show the buyer your set up and try and cultivate along that route a urge to the new owner to do the best for his animals he / she possibly can. Remember by sharing your knowledge (light), you don't deplete your own, you share your flame and many candles burning defeats the dark (ignorance).

I hope this came ou the way it was intended ~ English is not my mother tongue! (Blushing)

Sela ~ not another word from me.

[Immortal]

wesleybrouwer: Thanks!

JSG: Yes I did get him from a pet store, I got both from two different stores. Reason being because nobody here is breeding them. I already emailed someone about 30 mins from me who breeds other frogs and they didn't know anyone breeding red eyes. I also don't want to order a frog and have it shipped, I like to see them in person. These were my only choices. I chose the captive bred one instead of the ones where I got my first as I now know they are wild caught. I didn't want to support wild caught and the captive bred looked healthier - but also stressed being in that pet store, so in the end I "saved" him from those conditions. He is now super bright green all day, I think he finally figured it out. He was also kept with other frogs which I think also stressed him out.

Besides him, I havn't bought a pet (besides a fish) from a pet store in... over a year. And that was to save another animal lol.

I know it won't technically be legal, but I thought maybe in the contract it would state they have read the care sheet and understand it, so I know they know how to to properly take care of the animal. I have waivers for my photography as well that every single person has to sign. And it's to make sure they understand I still own the copyright on the images and that they can't alter them (edit/crop).

Thanks for your thoughs. I'm pretty sure I won't ever sell to a pet store. I'd rather find individual hobbyists to sell to which I know would know about the frogs.

[UncleChester]

I was just in a petsmart today. They had a rack of care pamphlets. I picked up the generic treefrog one which has been "Developed and approved by PetSmat Veterinarians". Most seems to be generally good info except the "communal" section which says they can "live well together with other similar size gentle reptiles or amphibians like house geckos, long-tailed lizards or green anoles", though it does go on to warn about keeping an eye on aggressive behavior. Did your petsmart have these pamphlets and did they make you take one?

On the plus side, while the cages they had their few frogs in were small for long term care, they were very clean, and had plenty of hiding spots. By far the worst was the lone Whites with about 5-6 gallons of space. A lone American green frog had the same size cage. No species mixing either, so I wonder why they would suggest it.

[Immortal]

That may have been the same pamphlet I got. I didn't even read it! I'm not sure if I still have it or if I threw it out but I'll check. Pet Smart Veterinarians.. probably small animal vets that know nothing about herps.