Frogs and Pet Stores

[clownonfire]

Hi,

I've been pondering about the following post since last weekend. Here's the situation: last weekend, my wife and I were taking a walk and we stopped in a pet store. We usually try and avoid these places, but we indulged in a bit of curiosity. They were carrying darts, Cobalts and Azureus. At an extravagant price (x2.5 what they paid to the breeder - who is one I know). These froglets were housed together (4 of them) in a mini Exo-Terra with one plastic Exo-Terra bromeliad. As if this was not enough to turn your stomach around, the tank didn't seem wet enough, and there were no hiding place for any of them.

Now you will tell me that this is custom and it's what to be expected from pet stores... But somehow I can't stay silent about this... I know these froglets are still too young to be territorial and to breed, but the whole setup stressed me, so I can just imagine how it stresses these frogs. I contacted the staff and asked to talk to the manager. But I have been told she wouldn't give a rat's a**. Any suggestions?

The other aspect that bothers me is why did the breeder sell these to a pet supplier, knowing these froglets were going to be housed together. Now in his defense, I do not know if he even is aware about the state of things. So breeders, my question is for you: Is it common practice? Do you guys inquire or inform the pet supplier about the conditions in which these frogs should be kept? And if so, and these tips are ignored, do you continue selling to these stores? Is it money VS integrity?

I spoke to another pet supplier closer to our house, they built a new viv, a large one, one for darts, and he was telling me they are waiting for all sorts of darts to populate this viv....

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Eric

[MikeM670]

Eric,

Some thoughts on this issue in no particularly order.

First off the pet store owners are in the business of making a dollar to live by, pay their staffs and rent/utilities. So that is probably going to cause prices to be higher then through a dealer.

Most don't have the floor space to provide the encloses we keep are frogs in. That is really the same for any animal/fish/reptile sold in stores. In our homes we give them much better living environments.

They are in the business of turning over the merchandise just as any store. So the small cages might or might not be a issue. ( All pet owners despise this issue, There is no simple answer for that )

Building a large vivarium and displaying a wide variety of frogs in it makes for the WOW factor to the average customer. Even those who know better then to keep different species in one habitat have that momentary aw feeling when seeing them that way.

As for breeders allowing this I would imagine that some may or may not care. They really can't do anything about what happens after they sell to a store other then refuse to do so in the future. That is a personal decision each must make.

Maybe the store owners are not really educated enough on the proper care of frog housing.

[clownonfire]

On a retail perspective, I understand. When I’m not busy obsessing about frogs, I make a living in marketing; web marketing. It’s my job to make you want something. I understand that pet shop owners have the bottom line in mind. But in this day in age, equitable/greener businesses are striving. As a web consultant, I will also chose to promote a brand in which I believe, and will not work for a product I do not believe in, nor one in which I do not respect its values.

We as consumers have a choice of encouraging or not such a store. We have stores in my neighbourhood that will chose to house species without mixing them, even if it might not cater to the general public from a visual stand. And these stores opt for education as their sales tool: they preach what they teach by displaying their animals the way they will tell you they should be housed once acquired by you. As a consumer (in this case a very aware consumer), I will not support a store if they purposely and knowingly display/house animals in ways that could be harmful to them. Why would I anyway? And unfortunately, beyond the business aspect of it, they promote and encourage “species mixing” unbeknownst to them as the everyday consumer will not know any better when it comes to frogs, and we will read a thread on this very forum by a very excited new frog owner, proud of his mini Exo-Terra tank, with 4 dart frogs of two different species with a heat lamp...

I am still curious to read the opinion of a breeder when it comes to selling to pet store owners (and I’m not talking about reputable and careful stores like Josh Frogs or Black Jungle). Is it the bottom line, or the hobby that comes first?

[MikeM670]

I agree about not supporting a business that either mistreats their animals, fails to follow proper practices or educates the potential buyer on proper care.

If enough people refuse to give their business to such places either they will change or go out of business.

Poor customer service equals going out of business.

[poison beauties]

Eric there are 100 times as many shops like that down here. The way I deal with it is to offer my services for free and tell them what could be advanced and bettered. Sometimes they act like they are the top of the latter and the best of the best how dare you question my skills and the others are interested in getting help.
To the ones who want help I help them. To the others I let them know quickly I know more about the one or two darts in their shop than they know about all amphibians and make them aware that our hobby keeps track of what shops are good and bad and we spread the word and it wont be long before they cant get those little frogs at such a low price as no one wants to sell to the equivalent of a puppy farm.
I have a list of herp shops Ive sold darts to by the hundreds over the years and I can guarantee the frogs I ship out will be kept properly until sold. Here is a tip to all. The hobby as far as darts go is small, the only way we will expand to a point that will equal the rest of the herp hobby is to spread the cb frogs out to where new comers will see them. The boards dont draw much attention. The herp shops and KS do. So offering the herpshops/ petshops a deal on the frog on the grounds they care for them properly is a plus for us all. Otherwise we are just trading and selling dartfrogs back and forth to one another.
I find that most of the time if you walk in and directly confront them about what needs to be fixed or bettered they are happy to atleast hear you out......that is about all we can do.

Michael

[Eric Walker]

I have sold some of my asperum froglets to my local reptile store only because I had plenty and didnt want to pay out of pocket for feeder rodents. some sold right away but the remaining was being housed with a bumble bee toad. I was not too happy. after talking to one of the ownes she tell me that they are fine. she even tried keeping the toad with an ''inexpensive treefrog'' first to make sure the toxins would not affect them. again. to date, they still have one left and now it is being housed with a reed frog of some sort. I will never give them the privalage of getting my frogs again after this and by no means would I ever buy one from them.

something has to be done with a surplus of frogs and this can help aleviate some of the need for buying wc frogs in some cases but i will not be the one doing it unless there are strict procedures followed.

now at this same shop they have some SI anthonyi being housed and they are the only specie in this cage. Notice I did not use the word viv, it is far from that. the sphag moss in the bottom looks dry as hell and it has a full screen top. the frogs
"look" fine but I am blown away at how they are not frog jerky.

[Eric Walker]

michael, I got the type of response you talked about from the pet shop i refered to when I tried to help out. I also tried to explain why the SI's they had where not tricolor like they had them labled and was just ignored.