White's problem...minor for now.

[Kisa]

Hey everyone. I am the proud owner of two WTFs, for those of you who don't know. I keep my bug guy in an Exo Terra 18x18x24, he is now about...3.25 inches to be exact, he's grown nearly double since I got him three months ago. At first I perceived no problems for him since I remodeled his tank, he has plenty of room to climb and hide (though he prefers to sit inside his log hide all day...sort of). But all of a sudden he seems quite restless and I'm not sure if this problem is serious or something I should just ignore.

Lately he's been very active (good since he is totally FAT), climbing all over the front of the tank and jumping from there to the vine in the back of the viv and back again (check out pictures in my albums if you want a clearer visual). It makes a loud smacking noise when he hits the glass, mostly face first, or what I feel like could be face first. This is the most concerning thing going on, it's been about a week since he started doing this.

I'm worried he could be hurting himself...also I've seen him on more than one occasion putting his hands against the glass and rubbing his nose all over it (like a little mime, it was so cute at first. ), like he's trying to push through. It seems like he might be trying to escape. I think he's learned that I have to open those doors to get him out of the tank and is trying to open them and escape. I love how smart these guys are, but it's starting to worry me a little.

Also a small tidbit: He has been sleeping outside of his log hide (which as far as I know he has spent every day since I got him sleeping in there if he could, so that's why this is a bit strange.) lately, this started happening a little while after his active streak. It seems like he's trying to compensate because he will sleep in a place where the light doesn't quite reach so he's shaded from it.

I don't know...am I over reacting? I've heard and seen pictures of frogs with nose rubs and I know that they do this when they've outgrown their enclosures, but honestly I don't think he has...it's a 33 gallon and he's in there all by himself (for now, until my baby WTF gets big enough). Does anyone have any theories?

Here's a picture from my album in case you want to look and see what I'm working with, but really I don't feel like he's cramped at all. I even recently posted a thread asking if I could fit THREE WTFs in that tank...looks like I definitely won't be doing that now...anyway, here's the picture.



Thanks for any insight you guys can provide. There aren't any marks or rubby-looking spots on his nose...yet.

Thanks.

[Leefrogs]

I think he's just trying to open the door. They're smart that way!! And as far as activity, I think he's just feeling better, and probably knows u have other frogs too. Even if they don't WARK, they do make Lil noises to eachother. Could be begging for food, kermit always bellies up to the glass when he's hungry, as I've cutback feeding days cuz I'm pretty sure they're done growing. Could be barrmetric pressure changes, who knows. Seems like goofy wtf action to me!!!

[Rocko]

Also could be the adjustment period, mine tries to escape when i change things to do with the tank. Also when the humidity drops or the temp drops he tries to escape. So in essence if not everything meets his dainty sensibility he tries to escape. Also just keep an eye on his nose for bruising that usually means he is pushing against the wire mesh area.

[Kisa]

I haven't seen him close enough to the top of the tank when he tries this craziness so I don't anticipate any bruising. You know what's funny though now that you mention it...

My baby blue phase in a ten gallon tank has been more active lately too, I just thought this was because he's finally adjusted to his new home and was ready to explore more thoroughly, but the other day I saw him pushing his face against the mesh top and entwining his little fingers in it, trying to escape. Maybe they're both experiencing the same thing...that could mean this is because of environmental changes, like you said Rocko.

Ginger, he also might be hungry, I've seriously cut back on his food because of his weight. The diet I had him on didn't seem to working so now it's one cricket every three days, or two of the smaller crickets. I tried to give him a wax worm to supplement the other night but he seemed totally uninterested, which is weird cuz usually he attacks anything that moves. I'll try again next feeding and see if he wants it then...

Thanks for the replies guys, I feel a bit better now. I just don't want him to get brain damage or something because he's smacking his face into the glass ten times or more a night. :/

[Rocko]

Far be it from me to judge amounts to feed these guys (read I have no idea, I just adjust feeding depending on if they start to look rolly polly or not), but 1 every 3 days does seem a little meager. You might try a gradual approach to phase him down to that so he's a bit more used to it and not expecting the all you can eat cricket buffet, but rather the cricket salad with a side of fat free waxworm.

[Dog Shrink]

Sounds to me it could just be because of the season change, and possibly the hormones are a stirrin (esp if ignoring food. A man with a mission doesn't think about food )... could be he just wants to be with his momma , altho if BOTH WTFs are doing it then it's more likely just a seasonal thing imo.

Only other thing I could think of is, when leopard geckos are spending a LOT of time out of their regular hides it turned out 80% of the time to be that their hide was too hot. Is there a heating source near that hide or on the tank that could be hotter than he wants right now? Elevated heat in a lot of herps/amphibs cause them to act out of the norm and get more active or lay in irregular places.

[Kisa]

@ Rocko: Believe me he has been weened. I wouldn't dream of taking him from big meals to small meals in such a short time, he was getting only one more cricket than he is now. He's obese still and could definitely use some weight loss intervention.

@ Kel: This is very true Kel I hadn't thought of that before. Maybe he is in breeding season...though I'm not even sure if he's male or if he's old enough to breed. I've heard him croak a few times but not since at least a few nights ago and the sound wasn't loud or obnoxious enough to rule out female...But I really hope that's the case. XD

Some nights he's less active than others, he'll just sit around all night one night and then the next night he's bouncing off the walls. XD;

Oh, and there's a heating pad under the tank but I don't think that's why he's moved...I won't rule it out completely but I've kept the temps pretty consistent.

[Dog Shrink]

Have you ever tried to make him croak by calling out to him? there's this guy on youtube that has some vids of his whites calling and it's in response to dude's calling to the frog first.


YouTube - Elvis the green tree frog sings again

I think that could def. give you a better idea on the guy/girl part.

[Kisa]

Haha I've seen those videos a thousand times. XD I watched them all when I was doing my research. I think I can try to see if he'll call back to me, I've tried it before but the only problem is something like that requires patience, which I don't have. >> XD;

[lnaminneci]

I love those Elvis videos too! Too funny!

Kisa, your tank looks great by the way, love the background!
I'm thinking your little guy wants to get to his tank mate! They will be buddies soon. I find that they are very social frogs, and they have just gotten settled in the tank and exploring and experimenting with escape techniques...lol

There seems to be alot of "hides" for them so they feel safe and secure. Maybe darken one side of the enclosure with a cloth or cardboard on the outside. But otherwise I think it is very normal behavior, and they are "testing" the limits...lol

Also up his food intake (a little), one cricket every 3 days would make me cranky
It is also a good sign that they are adjusting well when they are eating and growing, so good job!

Keep us posted on how they are doing.

~Lesley

[Kisa]

Thanks Lesley! I really loved this background too, I wanted so much to have a cool tribal theme to this tank, but it seems kind of trivial now that I have all the plants and things in there. XD; Sometime In the future I'm thinking of theming out more, maybe if I find more tribal decor...XD; Forgive my rambling.

Haha I think if Bruce Campbell wanted to get to Bruce Wayne it would only be to eat him. XD; My little guy's still about half his size unfortunately. I can't WAIT to put them together though, it'll be a proud day for mommy. ^ ^

At night the tank is pretty dark, we keep all the lights off, though that's pretty hard for a college student...>> But I think he's got enough darkness, it can barely see him once lights are out. XD;

I know I feel so bad for having to feed him so little, but his weight it really becoming a concern. Don't get me wrong, I love WTFs chunky, but I don't want to risk any more health problems with my Brucey if I don't have too. Once he's down to a normal weight I can feed him regularly. The crickets I'm feeding him are quite large btw, they're by no means small or medium. He has to take most of them with two bites! And if I think the first cricket is too small I always throw in another to supplement. I'm trying to get rid of the last of my waxworms too so hopefully he'll eat some of those. I had to give my little guy two of them last night because I ran out of little crickets... But the stock has replenished today so he'll get some extras tonight. XD;

Thanks for asking about updates, I LOVE updates. XD If you're curious you can check out my albums on my profile, I have a bazillion pictures of all my babies in there. XD

[daziladi]

Brit I have two WTF as well, in a similar sized viv... believe me they get a lot more active right before feeding day. Hunting for food maybe? I feed them 8 crickets each about every 5 days, dusted once per month. I feed in two different plastic containers... bf drilled holes in top for air flow and I mist right before placing them inside. They will sometimes leave a few crickets uneaten so I'm guessing they're satisfied. Another thing I just remembered... Chester used to be a bump on a log and never did any antics until I got SqueeG in there with him... now he's all over the place! Ginger could be right about them sensing each other. Hope this helps.

[Kisa]

Brit I have two Whites Tree Frog as well, in a similar sized viv... believe me they get a lot more active right before feeding day. Hunting for food maybe? I feed them 8 crickets each about every 5 days, dusted once per month. I feed in two different plastic containers... bf drilled holes in top for air flow and I mist right before placing them inside. They will sometimes leave a few crickets uneaten so I'm guessing they're satisfied. Another thing I just remembered... Chester used to be a bump on a log and never did any antics until I got SqueeG in there with him... now he's all over the place! Ginger could be right about them sensing each other. Hope this helps.

This does help a lot, thanks Daz! I really like hearing other people's WTF experience. I also feed my big guy in a seperate container, he has bad eyes and I find he's not very good at hunting, so when I go to feed him I take out his carrier, mist, put him inside and dump on or two crickets in there. Right after AI put him back in his viv. Mostly after feeding he's less active, probably cuz he has a full belly. He gores through period where he won't poop, and right now it's bee a while. Thinking about trying a warm soak again to get things moving...

Thanks for the insight! I hope they're as excited as I am to be put together! I really want them to get along. XD

[Dog Shrink]

I wouldn't be too worried about the not pooping thing too much as he is on a reduced diet, his body is likely using everything you're feeding him right now. Also he's kinda lazy. Movement makes movements in animals. The more active he is the more regular his GI will stay. I'd get him out for a lil free fun time maybe in the sink or tub or something and see if that helps. If not the soaks certainly won't hurt.

I bet he's hating the diet... like Garfield says "Diet is just DIE with a T in it" I think the worst part about diets is the body basically has to reach kind of a "starvation" mode before it'll start working off it's own fat cells, which causes the weight loss. At least when humans need to diet it's usually because we're eating too much of the wrong food but for an animal who's diet we control, the food quality isn't the issue so much as the food quantity. How much/often was he eating before his deit versus how much is he eating now?

[Kisa]

The more active he is the more regular his GI will stay. I'd get him out for a lil free fun time maybe in the sink or tub or something and see if that helps. If not the soaks certainly won't hurt.

At least when humans need to diet it's usually because we're eating too much of the wrong food but for an animal who's diet we control, the food quality isn't the issue so much as the food quantity. How much/often was he eating before his deit versus how much is he eating now?

He's pretty active around his viv right now, he spends all the waking hours we share climbing around the front of the cage usually so I'm not worried about his exercise so much anymore. He used to be the laziest thing in the whole world and then suddenly he changed and was all over the place, crazy active. XD

I feel so bad for having to put him on a diet, but it's hard for me to justify feeding him normally when I know he's so overweight. The last thing I want to do is starve him, but also I don't want him getting sick again and for WTFs, weight is a big factor in illness since they become obese so easily in captivity. I know they're supposed to be a little chunky, and I like that about them, but he could definitely stand to loose a few grams. I think when I have the time I'm going to grab a gram scale so I can measure his weight better. The last tim ehe was at the vet he was around 70 grams I believe...which is 15 grams over the ideal weight for White's, as I've read. I just wanna get him down to about 60 grams and then the diet will be over. I just want to avoid health complications at all costs.

When he was at Petsmart (I bought him 3 months ago tomorrow), they were feeding him 5-8 large crickets a day. That was just way too much. When I brought him home he was all flab, and the tank he was in didn't allow him anywhere to climb (it was just a small critter keeper in the back room with a water bowl and a place to hide), so he spent the first one and half months I had him sitting on the floor of the tank, never even trying to climb. The illness probably affected this as well...

I cut him down to three crickets every two days and when he seemed to still be gaining weight I cut it to every three days. That didn't work so I moved to two large crickets every two days and now I feed him one large or two medium every three days, plus the occasional waxworm, if he decides to eat it, that is.

Th bring down in his food intake was very gradual, I don't feel like going from two to one in such a span of time is hurting him in anyway. Maybe he's hungrier now, but other than that he should be fine. The larger crickets I'm feeding him he has to take in two bites anyway, they're bigger than his mouth, but he gets 'em down quicker than they realize where they are. XD;

When I feel he's lost enough weight (though he is climbing successfully now without sliding down the glass and having to dismount...) I'll bring the food intake back to normal.

Id there something better you guys think I should do? Maybe increase the number of days between feedings but also increase the crickets? Like two large every five days...? Or decrease the number of days? But that means he'll have less time to digest. I could give him one large or two medium every other day, but then again that would be increasing the food intake.

Based on my situation I am definitely willing to take advice if anyone has it, though I feel like what I'm feeding him now should be ok. Check out pictures of Mr. Campbell in my album, he's obese for reals.

[Dog Shrink]

Generally in terms of dieting you like smaller meals more often rather than occasional larger meals. Food coming in will fuel the metabolism which in turn burns the calories. If he's doing well on a feedinge very 3 days schedule thats great but I just know I read you thought he was getting grumpy from lack of food so maybe smaller meals more frequently would be more his speed. Will he eat any other type of feeder aside of crickets?

[Kisa]

Generally in terms of dieting you like smaller meals more often rather than occasional larger meals. Food coming in will fuel the metabolism which in turn burns the calories. If he's doing well on a feedinge very 3 days schedule thats great but I just know I read you thought he was getting grumpy from lack of food so maybe smaller meals more frequently would be more his speed. Will he eat any other type of feeder aside of crickets?

Oh I see what you mean. I'm not sure if he's getting grumpy per se...I don't remember saying that but if I did sorry. XD; I must've changed my mind between now and then.

I actually have only tried feeding crickets, wax worms, and meal worms. He ate the meal worms and wax worms with no problems and the crickets he'll always go for. I haven't tried anything else similar to crickets though. I think about cockroaches from time to time but end up being too grossed out. >>

[Leefrogs]

were not talking about a people diet here...........

Whites of adult size should be fed twice a week
She's doing it right!

[Kisa]

were not talking about a people diet here...........

Whites of adult size should be fed twice a week
She's doing it right!

Thanks Ginger, that's reassuring to hear. ><