White dumpy info!!

[scarletts003]

I have had my white dumpy tree frog for about a year now, we moved 2 months ago and I changed his tank out. I haven't changed his shaving or anything and all he does now is lay in his bowl all day! He dosen't do anything! Please help, I think that something might be wrong with him

[tjtreefrog]

First, Welcome to the forum! Now, what bedding do you have him on?

[Leefrogs]

what does change his tank out mean? And u r using shaving? Like wood? There's allot of info we need before we can even guess. Water, temps, humidity, conditions, shavings, and possibly pictures. Sorry to hear he's sick, he probably needs a vet

[scarletts003]

I have him on the zoo med shavings, they are suppose to help raise the humidity, temp is 65-70, humidity is 40-60, I feed him live crickets, I put the blue chemical stuff in his water to take out any impurities, I also have him in the tall terrarium, with a rock wall/vines/fake plants and moss on the bottom.

[tjtreefrog]

Ok, I'm assuming they are Aspen shavings, those are ok. Stay away from pine and cedar, they are toxic.The temp is a little on the low side. What are you using to heat the tank? The humidity is also a little low. Coconut husk is much better at keeping the humidity up. Also, a heat light will dry the air out faster. What is the blue stuff called? Blue coloration can sometimes mean copper which is bad for amphibians. Other than that, does he have any discoloration or blotches? Does he seem bloated at all?

[scarletts003]

The bark is Fir tree bark, it says that it does not have any aromatic oils that are found in pine or cedar shavings. The blue stuff isn't a problem, I've been using it ever since I got him and its been fine. I use a heat lamp with a 25w bulb, thats the biggest size it can take. I have one of those tall tanks that have the 2 doors on the front that swing open open, its made by Exo Terra.

[scarletts003]

He is also a brown color and red on his legs, I will try and post a pic of him

[Dog Shrink]

I hate to say this but Fir trees and Pine trees are the same thing for the most part. Both are evergreens with needles and not leaves like Aspen trees. Pine bedding is not recommended for most herps because of the off gasses it puts out when it is exposed to humidity. Aspen is an entirely different type of tree, not an evergreen, and a much better source for wood shavings for herps if that is what is called for, or cypress mulch, cocoafiber, bed-a-beast etc, are all better than fir or pine shavings. I have heard that some whites tree frogs will be brown if they don't have enough heat in their viv.

[scarletts003]

ok, thanks. What would be the best brand/kind to get at petsmart?

[Dog Shrink]

That would be hard to say. Bed-a-beast, jungle bed, forest floor, with a mix of sphagnum moss maybe. I'm thinking as long as it's brown substrait, cocanut fiber husk etc. that you should be ok. When we had our bufo we would make a mix of eco earth, sphagnum moss and garden soil (with out fertilizer) with a little sand. Mix it up like a tossed salad and voila. A perfect substrait that she could bury into, held moisture well, and didn't put of any off gasses.

[scarletts003]

Ok, this is the bark that I just bought to put in his cage.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/inde...:referralID=NA


And also, whats the best thing to keep humidity up? I think that it might also be a issue.

Thanks

[Dog Shrink]

That stuff looks pretty good. Kinda chippy tho so you might want to consider mixing it with some sphagnum moss. Regular misting maybe a couple times a day until you get the bedding good and moist will help with your humidity levels as will adding the sphagnum moss. Another nice thing about sphagnum moss is it is a natural antifungal antibacterial substrait so it won't mold from excessive moisture.

[amisbeef]

I seriously would consider investing in coco-fibre. In all my years of herp keeping, I have always given my frogs coco-husk bedding. It is the best for keepign humidity up and it is the least dangerous substrate for your frog. Dog Shrink is right pine and cedar shavings can give off aromatic hydrocarbons - Phenols - which can be harmful to reptiles and even some rodents kept on this substrate - never mind frogs which such delicate skin - I mean, these guys breathe and drink through their skin, heaven knows what they'll take in accidently.

In regards to impaction - coco-husk is also the safest as if taken in by these ferocious eaters, it will just pass through. A problem with sphagnum moss is that when eaten by White's it is very hard to pass through, and can put your frog in a lot of pain. Bark isn't as big of a problem as moss can be, as it is rarely accidently eaten as it is so big, these frogs will generally notice when they've accidently got a bit of bark and swipe it away with their 'hand'. Another problem that can arise with too much sphagnum moss is that it can retain your frogs toxicity which is no problem in small doses, but once built up within the moss, can cause some problems to your frogs health. Also, I would not recommend putting any sand in your substrate! That will surely only irritate your frogs skin and just isn't a good substrate for a tree frog.

With regards to other solutions to raise humidity - I'd imagine with the exo terra terrarium you have described - your bulb is resting on the metal mesh at the top of the tank? I would recommend finding a slightly weaker bulb, as it could be contributing to the drying out of your substrate.

Finally, another way of raising humidity is placing something on top of the mesh at the top for a short while - always raises humidity quickly.

[Dog Shrink]

I was doing some reading last night about waxy monkey frogs and barred tiger salamanders and it actually recommended against cocofiber alone as it can be quite dusty and get into the animals nose and eyes possibly causing infection. Have you ever had any troubles with this in your experience?

[Rocko]

Well while I haven't seen infections from it, if you do not keep the coco fiber damp, yeah it does get really dusty and even wet just coats your frog, which I can't imagine is good long term. With a waxy frog that seems to prefer drier climates than most of the other tree frogs, it seems to me you'd get dry coco fiber pretty easily. At the very least covering it in leaf litter seems to be a good solution to that. I agree that coco fiber is probably one of the safest substrates, but it does have a tendency to compact or spoil quickly, meaning that if you do use, be prepared to replace it regularly.

[Dog Shrink]

Would you suggest for herps that like a damper environment maybe mixing the coco fiber with maybe sphagnum moss or another more "durable" substrait to keep it more user friendly or is it gonna sour and stick regardless of how you mix it?

[amisbeef]

Frogs getting covered in coco fibre has been an inconvenience! I use some orchid bark on top of the coco to stop my frogs getting too messy. I have used small amounts of moss before too, but not at the moment. It's more of a bark layer though, not a mix.

It does have a tendency to dry out after a while due to lamps and heat mats, so misting the substrate directly helps the humidity and keeps the substrate fresh In my experience it only dries or spoils if left untouched for a few weeks.

Also, never had infections before

[Rocko]

Well as amisbeef said, there are some concerns with the sphagnum, although I know a lot of people do use a mixture of the two, which I think will help keep it from compacting and provide good moisture. The problem with spoilage I think is partly dependent on what you keep. White's frogs are large poop machines, and combined with a damp substrate, funky things just can't help but grow and flourish in a short time. I'm not going to say I am an expert yet on managing waste for the white's although from other keepers I have talked to some of the happiest are the ones that just use damp paper towels on the bottom and change them out quickly and easily daily. I of course chose the planted tank route and so that option wasn't available to me. Having a full "ecosystem" of waste managing bacteria, bugs, and the like may extend a particular substrate's life time.

[Dog Shrink]

I would think tho that the natural tendancy of sphagnum moss having antifungal and antibacterial qualities would make it an inhospitiable host for waste growing fungus tho wouldn't it? I use sphagnum moss in my leopard gecko's snclosure for his moist hide and I really like it. Yes if you don't mist regularly like every other day it will dry out and brown but that's just a maintenance issue really right? I would think the pros would outweigh the cons in the long run no???

Please don't think that I'm arguing or some sphagnum moss advocate delux but I just like being well informed from people who have more experience with it in different applications than myself esp. since I'm considering a new frog/toad in the near future and would prefer a natural lower maintenance (yeah right ) setup. Hopefully some of this banter actually helps the op as well.

[amisbeef]

I know the inconvenience of sphagnum moss drying out from my own leopard geckos; its great for their log hides when theyre shedding, but literally leave it more than a day and it will dry right out. It's a bit worse with leopard geckos as they're desert animals, and theyre kept at lower humidity and higher temperatures.

Pros generally do outweight the cons, as long as you're willing to continue misting the moss in consideration. However, moss retaining the toxicity of your Whites tree frog is less of an issue with desert gecko species as frogs have delicate skin used to 'breathe' and geckos do not have this physiological ability.


With regards to managing frog poop, luckily with mine - at the moment - they are all pooping well and solid, so it is easy to distinguish between poop and substrate tp remove from the terrarium, although with unwell frogs, I know how hard it is to remove waste without taking out big layer of normal substrate, especially with a fully planted terrarium.