New vivarium - Crowdsourcing on Frog Forum

[btcope]

clay is easy and fun ... especially when it comes time to start planting stuff. instead of trying to dig holes in foam and tie/wire things to the walls, you just mush them into the clay and you're done!

It's very simple, as well ... here goes.

Go to your local pottery store (if you can find one) and pick up sodium bentonite and redart clay. If you can't find the clay anywhere, you can go to petco and buy "dr. elsey's 100% clay kitty litter (non-perfumed)". This is just sodium bentonite clay, and if you soak it, it turns right back into mush again...

If you have the sodium bentonite and redart, you'll want to play with them some and mix the two until you get the right color (totally to your preference). When you're mixing it up, you want to mix in some milled sphagnum moss and peat moss. The organics help hold things together, as well as start coloring up and growing live moss right out of your clay which looks great. Final ratio should be about 3/4 clay 1/4 organics. If you put in too many organics, they will decompose over time and your clay might fall apart...

Mix it up and work the moisture out of it until its about the consistency of modeling clay, then just slam it in the viv. If it's too wet, it'll slide right off, if it's too dry, it'll crack and fall off. Since you're building for darts, you'll already be keeping the humidity up high, and the clay will be in good shape. If you leave the tank open and let it dry out, it'll crack and fall off...

One thing to note, after you set it up... You'll want to let it sit for a while before you run water directly over it. It needs time to develop "biofilms". But eventually you can slowly increase the amount of watering and turn it in to a continuous flow if you want a drip wall or something like that...

here's an old photo of a clay wall viv i did before it was completely covered in plants...


a lot of people have done lots of cool stuff with it. one guy i saw broke up a bunch of cork into little pieces and mushed it into the wall like a mosaic ... it was really cool and the plants looked very happy. wish i could find that post... somewhere on dendroboard.

-brett

[clownonfire]

This post will have a few topics:

@Don: Thanks for your comments on the Habba Mist. I'll use it, it seems perfectly capable of doing the job, and we use dechlorinated water which will help to keep it unclogged.

@Brett: I am more and more tempted to try the clay route. We do have lots of places in Montreal where we could buy the supplies. I send your process to one of my friends who's a clay artist, and will wait for her feedback as to the feasibility of it in my case (i'm more worried about me than in the clay - i'm not the most manual. I will end up learning, but after a few mistakes). I have a few questions, Brett:

1. How heavy will the clay get? As we will building for a terrarium that is about 80 cm large (31.5 inches) and close to 40 cm in height (15.75 inches), won't the clay get heavy for the bottom glass of the aquarium?

2. If I understand you, there's no need for a period of "curing" in this case?

3. As you say it needs to be not too dry and not too wet, basically, I need to build the clay backdrop a few days before I actually start the mister?

4. The idea of a drip wall appeals to me a great deal. I am thinking of adding sphagnum moss and pieces of cork in the clay, to your suggestion. But if I go this route, I will create drip paths. How long do we have to wait to start really using water on it?

Q.: Don, Brett, do we need to create a small pond for these frogs? As my vents are so small, they soak in the broms. Azureus are slightly bigger... I was thinking that if we create a drip wall, we could have some of it fall into a pond that could be built at the bottom of the drip wall, somewhere along the wall...

Thanks Brett.

Plants.

When I spoke to Sara my wife about creeping fig, she got really excited about the ideas of using it. So I am certain we will be using that one, and two orchids. The rest is still to be decided with you all.


Q.: If we are going to plant seeds, does anyone knows which plant should be best, and the process/time that it takes?

Q.: There's always the great lighting question. As I read often, it's often said not to bother for the frogs, but important for the plants. In case of darts and the terrarium we are all building, what is your thoughts on this?

Update:

1. We picked up the aquarium yesterday. So I'm thinking we should start building my March 1. I would like to submit you guys a drawing of the vivarium to have your ok, inputs, suggestions corrections, and post back the drawing with your comments and we'll use it as the blueprint.

2. I have finally decided on the frogs: It will be a pair of azureus (sorry John). There's a breeder in Montreal which supplies occasionally Mark Pepper from UE, and we will be taking his route.

3. Once we start building, I will make a recap of this pre-production/crowdsourcing process before going forward, to make the thread more concise for new readers and to make sure we have everyone's buy-in.

4. Once the terrarium will be complete, I will take this thread and condense it in a new How to build a terrarium for darts, with the planning, the process, the needed material, and a FAQ at the end of the article, with the most pertinent questions that were asked here, so that the most information will be gathered and available for future darters.

That's it for now! Thank you everyone for your contribution so far!

Eric

[clownonfire]

Here are the actual dimensions of the aquarium. It's a 25 US gallons. It's the maximum size we can fit home: 30"X12.5"X16".

[btcope]

I dumped a bunch of stuff down there ... look for the red text. You've got me all excited thinking about this stuff, and it makes me want to build another viv. my girlfriend seems to think i have "enough" of them already...

This post will have a few topics:

1. How heavy will the clay get? As we will building for a terrarium that is about 80 cm large (31.5 inches) and close to 40 cm in height (15.75 inches), won't the clay get heavy for the bottom glass of the aquarium?

I have put it on 20 gal tanks turned vertically only so far. 2 sides of the tank though. so one wall is about 24"x12" and the other wall is 24"x18" ... it does get fairly heavy, as its about 1" thick all around with added bumps, grooves, texture, shelves, etc... but i haven't noticed any problems. also, it won't be pressing onto the bottom because you'll be starting the clay a few inches off the bottom so you have room for your drainage layer and substrate first.

2. If I understand you, there's no need for a period of "curing" in this case?

not really... its safe to plant pretty much right away. the only "curing" is also the answer to your next Q. i have drip walls so i would like have them off completely and dry for a few days, then mist only for a few days, then 1min of drip/day for a week, then two minutes ... etc, etc... if stuff starts to fall off or it looks too soggy, i back off, if it starts to look dry, i add more time. with misters you'll probably not want to run them much more then a total of a few minutes/day anyway (spread out) so you'll be good to go within a couple weeks of being set up.


3. As you say it needs to be not too dry and not too wet, basically, I need to build the clay backdrop a few days before I actually start the mister?
see last Q


4. The idea of a drip wall appeals to me a great deal. I am thinking of adding sphagnum moss and pieces of cork in the clay, to your suggestion. But if I go this route, I will create drip paths. How long do we have to wait to start really using water on it?
see last Q

Q.: Don, Brett, do we need to create a small pond for these frogs? As my vents are so small, they soak in the broms. Azureus are slightly bigger... I was thinking that if we create a drip wall, we could have some of it fall into a pond that could be built at the bottom of the drip wall, somewhere along the wall...

it just depends on your preference. people always tell me that water features are unnecessary and for noobs because they waste valuable hopping space, but i still like them a lot. i guess it boils down to the fact that these frogs don't need the water. they will do just fine without the pond. On the other hand, since you're getting a pair, if you want to leave the eggs in the tank and let them raise their own, it'd be good to have a little pond for them to transport the tads to. just make sure that if you put it in it has a very gentle slope so they can climb out easily. they're not good swimmers. as much as people have told me darts don't need water, my azureus pair can be seen hanging out w/ their feet in the pool all the time. i think the reason they like it is because the springtails i throw in the substrate collect around the water and they pick them off as they come out.


Plants.

When I spoke to Sara my wife about creeping fig, she got really excited about the ideas of using it. So I am certain we will be using that one, and two orchids. The rest is still to be decided with you all.
which orchids do you have?

Q.: If we are going to plant seeds, does anyone knows which plant should be best, and the process/time that it takes?
never tried this, but interested in seeing how it turns out. its always a nice surprise then you get "hitchhiker" plants you didn't know you had popping up in places. the germinating seeds might be a nice surprise as well.

Q.: There's always the great lighting question. As I read often, it's often said not to bother for the frogs, but important for the plants. In case of darts and the terrarium we are all building, what is your thoughts on this?
i use 6500k compact fluorescent bulbs. they're cheap and easy to find, and my plants don't seem to be complaining.

Eric

[DonLisk]

Q.: There's always the great lighting question. As I read often, it's often said not to bother for the frogs, but important for the plants. In case of darts and the terrarium we are all building, what is your thoughts on this?

I also use the compact fluorescents on all my vivs except the new dart viv which I did T5 florescent tubes and were inexpensive at the hardware store. Labeled for saltwater aquariums.

Q.: Don, Brett, do we need to create a small pond for these frogs? As my vents are so small, they soak in the broms. Azureus are slightly bigger... I was thinking that if we create a drip wall, we could have some of it fall into a pond that could be built at the bottom of the drip wall, somewhere along the wall...

I'm going to agree with Brett here. I like a pond area and the last I did came through some cork bark and ran the cracks of cork to create a small pond below. Water filtered back through the substrate so no filter system was needed.


As for the creeping fig.... I added that to the darts viv yesterday and it looks awesome.
also added some Cryptanthus but not the pretty one at Josh's Frogs.

[clownonfire]

Brett, we have phalaenopsis orchids. As for the lights, I have some in my vents for the plants too, I will add some to the new terrarium as well.

I'll try and make a small pond beneath the dripping wall. I have an idea that could be nice.

For the clay, Sara seems really excited about the idea, as I am. I'm just slightly ticked that I had purchased already all the necessary tubes and cans of silicone and foam... I'll go do some clay shopping this week...

So, I think we're pretty much set for the next phase!

I will come up with a drawing (by drawing expect a very basic doodling), a resume of what we've all exchanged on, the supplies we have, and a time frame. And from that point on, once we agree on the plan, we'll start building I guess around February 25-26... I'll post pictures of each steps...

I'm quite excited on this one. Thank you, so far, to all of you.

[clownonfire]

Brett, one last question. Now asnI've never worked with clay, so you work directly in the enclosure or outside to insert it in after? If you work with it directly in the tank (which is the way ive done it in the past with silicone and foam), does the clay adheres to the glass?

[btcope]

yep, it sticks right to the glass, if it slides off, it's too wet. it's really way easier and more fun than the foam. kinda like playing in the mud and when you're all done if you look at it and don't like it, you can pull it off and do it again!

good luck,

brett