New vivarium - Crowdsourcing on Frog Forum

[DonLisk]

1. I usually use layers of earth, them coconut husk, then a forest mix. Are we all good with this?
Definitely

2. I have a fairly good amount of sphahnum moss. Will we be using some (closer to when we will introduce the frogs) beneath the leaf litter layer?
I haven't used any and would love to know how my dart viv would benefit from the moss under the leaf liter.

3. The plants. Of course, bromeliads. What other suggestions do you have? Which ones should be seeded and which ones should be planted?
This is where I have zero experience. Found my ivy didn't like damp conditions so I'm gonna learn something here.

[clownonfire]

1. I usually use layers of earth, them coconut husk, then a forest mix. Are we all good with this?
Definitely

2. I have a fairly good amount of sphahnum moss. Will we be using some (closer to when we will introduce the frogs) beneath the leaf litter layer?
I haven't used any and would love to know how my dart viv would benefit from the moss under the leaf liter.

3. The plants. Of course, bromeliads. What other suggestions do you have? Which ones should be seeded and which ones should be planted?
This is where I have zero experience. Found my ivy didn't like damp conditions so I'm gonna learn something here.

Using moss has been for us to mimic as best the natural environment of the frogs. We have used pillow moss in most of our terrariums, including the vents, so far. I personally really like it as it can root (so to speak) and will live once well cared for, as opposed to sphagnum moss. The goal is also to keep the enclosure as moist as possible and moss really helps in our experience.

The downside to sphagnum moss is that I have read here on this forum, and elsewhere, that live cultures will hide in it, mostly pinhead crickets (as you know, fruit flies are worriless and are much easier food for darts). I’ve also read that some frogs will sometimes eat sphagnum moss, and it can be somewhat damaging, if not fatal. I think poison beauties can help us with this one.

As for plants… I’m with you on this one. Not my forte. When we first planted the vents terrarium, we put some tillandsia and poison beauties, and the vents breeder were apprehensive and warned me that they would not survive in the vents enclosure…. And they were right. It’s too humid and they don’t have time to dry, so they started rotting from the roots.

We will certainly plant some wandering jews in our vents enclosure… It could be a good one for the azureus too.

[DonLisk]

I'll have to look at some Wandering Jews and Pillow Moss this weekend. Might work for replacing the Ivy I removed this week and the moss could cover some of the open substrate areas.

[Leefrogs]

Any fern will do really, there's old school viv's that have things like orcihd, african violet, or even viola(seed) or called violets. They will take over and need to be thinned. Orchid a an air plant, plant in original pot. No need to transplant just pritz . Also good moisture lovers are japanese sweet flag, chinese evergreen, and peace lily. I'm sure going on black jungles web site might have more ideas for u also, and they sell the plants also.

[DonLisk]

Any fern will do really, there's old school viv's that have things like orcihd, african violet, or even viola(seed) or called violets. They will take over and need to be thinned. Orchid a an air plant, plant in original pot. No need to transplant just pritz . Also good moisture lovers are japanese sweet flag, chinese evergreen, and peace lily. I'm sure going on black jungles web site might have more ideas for u also, and they sell the plants also.

I was thinking on a road trip to Black Jungle on Saturday or Sunday if they are open.
Hoping I don't have to work Saturday, if so I'd be cutting it close since its about 3 hours from me.

[clownonfire]

Any fern will do really, there's old school viv's that have things like orcihd, african violet, or even viola(seed) or called violets. They will take over and need to be thinned. Orchid a an air plant, plant in original pot. No need to transplant just pritz . Also good moisture lovers are japanese sweet flag, chinese evergreen, and peace lily. I'm sure going on black jungles web site might have more ideas for u also, and they sell the plants also.

GingerLee, thank you. I spoke to my wife who worked for a long time as a florist and a horticulturist, and she says they are great choices. He said that the Chinese Evergreen don't like to be over wet, but that in a warmer terrarium, it would probably be ok. She also says that both the Chinese Evergreen and the Peace Lily can get quite big. She thinks the Peace Lily could nonetheless be great as they are great air purifiers.

We also have two orchids at home which we will plant. Currently, these orchids have no flower, just the leaves, but if the conditions are right, she said they might bloom again.

Any other suggestions? Sara (my wife) will also give us a few by tomorrow...

As for Black Jungle, I'll take a look at their website. We are in Montreal, so we'll find something closer to home for the purchases.

[John]

Eric asked me to look and contribute so here goes.

Species choice, I have never been crazy about Azureus (yes, I'm that one person). I would choose a tinctorius, probably Powder Blue. Auratus are a nice but if you do choose one, go for one of the "fluorescent" kinds like the Panamanian kind that Josh's Frogs sells - I know you're in Canada so you can't get them from him, but at least you can see what I mean from his web site.

Silicone: I'm actually a chemist. From everything I've read, I believe Bioseal is a bad thing to have around frogs. However, I think we can get away with it well in a thumbnail vivarium because the nasties end up in the drainage layer, which most people will siphon off every now and then. There is no recycling of any chemical residue into the tank, and tadpoles are not raised in it. This is more of a concern in the case of larger frogs that might deposit eggs in a built-in pond which uses the drainage layer water. I have no evidence to give you on whether or not bioseal is harmful, but I have only ever used it in the thumbnail situation and I've not noticed any issues with the frogs.

Plants: I'm really not an expert on plants, but I do have preferences for certain situations. Do you have specific niches left to fill?

[clownonfire]

Eric asked me to look and contribute so here goes.

Species choice, I have never been crazy about Azureus (yes, I'm that one person). I would choose a tinctorius, probably Powder Blue. Auratus are a nice but if you do choose one, go for one of the "fluorescent" kinds like the Panamanian kind that Josh's Frogs sells - I know you're in Canada so you can't get them from him, but at least you can see what I mean from his web site.

Silicone: I'm actually a chemist. From everything I've read, I believe Bioseal is a bad thing to have around frogs. However, I think we can get away with it well in a thumbnail vivarium because the nasties end up in the drainage layer, which most people will siphon off every now and then. There is no recycling of any chemical residue into the tank, and tadpoles are not raised in it. This is more of a concern in the case of larger frogs that might deposit eggs in a built-in pond which uses the drainage layer water. I have no evidence to give you on whether or not bioseal is harmful, but I have only ever used it in the thumbnail situation and I've not noticed any issues with the frogs.

Plants: I'm really not an expert on plants, but I do have preferences for certain situations. Do you have specific niches left to fill?

John, thanks for taking time to participate and giving us your feedback. For the silicone, we won’t be using a lot, but I will follow your lead on your terrariums “how to build” threads you have and will use the GE II Silicone.

As for plants, we are still in the process of selection, nothing is set in stone yet. I know broms are always a clear choice for darts. And we do have orchids home, which we would like to use. But we have lots of space to fill. So please, I would be curious to see which plants you would prefer… It’s a collective effort, after all!

I’m pretty certain we will go with the Azureus. We could still be swayed towards the Powder Blue… We will be getting them from Understory Enterprises this Summer during Mark Pepper’s trip to Montreal. We still have a month or two to make a clear choice.

[Leefrogs]

I have a mini peace lily, with blooms the size of littlest pinkie nail. As far as I can tell they come in 3 sizes. Orchid bloom will bend in viv and look awsome. There's a Jap painted fern that's kinda blue purple and green. But I'm not sure what zone it is. May need dormant period, anything over a zone 9 will do good in a viv.

[btcope]

Okay ... whew, this is going to be fun... some thoughts... you asked for it

1) you mention bromeliads a few times as obvious choices for darts. From what i've read, and seen with my own azureus, bromeliads will be more for your enjoyment in this tank. not to say that you shouldn't use them, because they are beautiful and i have them in my viv, but typically, larger frogs like azureus, tincs, auratus, etc. won't lay eggs in a bromeliad. Ranitomeya, on the otherhand, love them. Also, my juvenile leucomelas climb in the broms all the time.

2) you asked about the benefits of having sphagnum moss in your tank. I always mix sphagnum in with my soil because its great at holding moisture, and it has a nice natural look. Also, i've read that it has antiseptic properties that can help resist against any nasties you might have growing in your viv.

3) wandering jew. be prepared to trim this stuff. I threw in a cutting that was about 4" long in a viv, and i cut FEET of it out of my viv all the time. (if anyone wants cuttings around socal, they're ALL YOURS).

4) for orchids, you should incorporate some kind of air flow into the tank. they (and all of the plants in my vivs) really seem to benefit from a little airflow. the easiest way to accomplish this is just get a little PC fan, wrap it in screen, and mount it up in the corner. there are all kinds of other ways to do it, but that's probably the most bang for your effort.

I know its used a lot, but my new fav orchid is macodes petola. it's a little jewel if you're not familiar and it has great foliage, which is nice if you're like me and you can't get anything to bloom. I planted this guy about 6 weeks ago and its got new leaves cropping up all the time

(top right orchid macodes petola, bottom left orchid, restrepia antennifora)


5) to reply on the bioseal GE silicone thing... I've searched and searched, it seems the consensus is that we probably don't think its a good thing, but no one has had a problem with it that we know about. many froggers have used it and had plenty of successful breeding in their tanks... i recently got in to clay backgrounds instead of the great stuff and silicone method... now that i'm in to clay, i don't mess w/ the stuff anymore and i couldn't be happier. i use pure aquarium silicone to hold stuff in place, and cover everything with clay where it needs to look good. if you want more info on how to do the clay thing, let me know, its a lot easier than foam/silicone, and in my opinion, more fun.

... i think that's enough for now ... wheeewwww....

-brett

[clownonfire]

Brett, thank you for the feedback, and thank you for joining in! You made a few points which we will be very useful. The bromeliads being one of them. If we can go without them, then we have the possibility of planting something else.... Any other suggestions?

And I'd like to know more about clay. My wife and I would be quite happy if we can get away from the foam/silicone, which we always make sure to use when the kids are not around, but mostly, if clay is an option, it would create a much more natural eco system, which would make this a real green enclosure. I'm all ears.

Thank you, Brett!

[clownonfire]

I received a Zoo Med Hubba Mist brand new for a fraction of the price and was thinking about using it for the new terrarium. Has anyone ever used it or know anything about it?

[DonLisk]

I received a Zoo Med Hubba Mist brand new for a fraction of the price and was thinking about using it for the new terrarium. Has anyone ever used it or know anything about it?

Looks like it would work fine and I think I read you just need to make sure your not using tap water so it doesn't get clogged up often.

I set up my Monsoon and now am trying to just run it once a day for 15 seconds. My humidity is over 90 percent and temps hit a high of 80 today but have been averaging 76 - 79 degrees. If your viv is retaining humidity as mine is then that Hubba Mist should work nicely.

Oh, I picked up a creeping fig today and put it into my new viv and we'll see how easily it takes.

[btcope]

clay is easy and fun ... especially when it comes time to start planting stuff. instead of trying to dig holes in foam and tie/wire things to the walls, you just mush them into the clay and you're done!

It's very simple, as well ... here goes.

Go to your local pottery store (if you can find one) and pick up sodium bentonite and redart clay. If you can't find the clay anywhere, you can go to petco and buy "dr. elsey's 100% clay kitty litter (non-perfumed)". This is just sodium bentonite clay, and if you soak it, it turns right back into mush again...

If you have the sodium bentonite and redart, you'll want to play with them some and mix the two until you get the right color (totally to your preference). When you're mixing it up, you want to mix in some milled sphagnum moss and peat moss. The organics help hold things together, as well as start coloring up and growing live moss right out of your clay which looks great. Final ratio should be about 3/4 clay 1/4 organics. If you put in too many organics, they will decompose over time and your clay might fall apart...

Mix it up and work the moisture out of it until its about the consistency of modeling clay, then just slam it in the viv. If it's too wet, it'll slide right off, if it's too dry, it'll crack and fall off. Since you're building for darts, you'll already be keeping the humidity up high, and the clay will be in good shape. If you leave the tank open and let it dry out, it'll crack and fall off...

One thing to note, after you set it up... You'll want to let it sit for a while before you run water directly over it. It needs time to develop "biofilms". But eventually you can slowly increase the amount of watering and turn it in to a continuous flow if you want a drip wall or something like that...

here's an old photo of a clay wall viv i did before it was completely covered in plants...


a lot of people have done lots of cool stuff with it. one guy i saw broke up a bunch of cork into little pieces and mushed it into the wall like a mosaic ... it was really cool and the plants looked very happy. wish i could find that post... somewhere on dendroboard.

-brett

[clownonfire]

This post will have a few topics:

@Don: Thanks for your comments on the Habba Mist. I'll use it, it seems perfectly capable of doing the job, and we use dechlorinated water which will help to keep it unclogged.

@Brett: I am more and more tempted to try the clay route. We do have lots of places in Montreal where we could buy the supplies. I send your process to one of my friends who's a clay artist, and will wait for her feedback as to the feasibility of it in my case (i'm more worried about me than in the clay - i'm not the most manual. I will end up learning, but after a few mistakes). I have a few questions, Brett:

1. How heavy will the clay get? As we will building for a terrarium that is about 80 cm large (31.5 inches) and close to 40 cm in height (15.75 inches), won't the clay get heavy for the bottom glass of the aquarium?

2. If I understand you, there's no need for a period of "curing" in this case?

3. As you say it needs to be not too dry and not too wet, basically, I need to build the clay backdrop a few days before I actually start the mister?

4. The idea of a drip wall appeals to me a great deal. I am thinking of adding sphagnum moss and pieces of cork in the clay, to your suggestion. But if I go this route, I will create drip paths. How long do we have to wait to start really using water on it?

Q.: Don, Brett, do we need to create a small pond for these frogs? As my vents are so small, they soak in the broms. Azureus are slightly bigger... I was thinking that if we create a drip wall, we could have some of it fall into a pond that could be built at the bottom of the drip wall, somewhere along the wall...

Thanks Brett.

Plants.

When I spoke to Sara my wife about creeping fig, she got really excited about the ideas of using it. So I am certain we will be using that one, and two orchids. The rest is still to be decided with you all.


Q.: If we are going to plant seeds, does anyone knows which plant should be best, and the process/time that it takes?

Q.: There's always the great lighting question. As I read often, it's often said not to bother for the frogs, but important for the plants. In case of darts and the terrarium we are all building, what is your thoughts on this?

Update:

1. We picked up the aquarium yesterday. So I'm thinking we should start building my March 1. I would like to submit you guys a drawing of the vivarium to have your ok, inputs, suggestions corrections, and post back the drawing with your comments and we'll use it as the blueprint.

2. I have finally decided on the frogs: It will be a pair of azureus (sorry John). There's a breeder in Montreal which supplies occasionally Mark Pepper from UE, and we will be taking his route.

3. Once we start building, I will make a recap of this pre-production/crowdsourcing process before going forward, to make the thread more concise for new readers and to make sure we have everyone's buy-in.

4. Once the terrarium will be complete, I will take this thread and condense it in a new How to build a terrarium for darts, with the planning, the process, the needed material, and a FAQ at the end of the article, with the most pertinent questions that were asked here, so that the most information will be gathered and available for future darters.

That's it for now! Thank you everyone for your contribution so far!

Eric

[clownonfire]

Here are the actual dimensions of the aquarium. It's a 25 US gallons. It's the maximum size we can fit home: 30"X12.5"X16".

[btcope]

I dumped a bunch of stuff down there ... look for the red text. You've got me all excited thinking about this stuff, and it makes me want to build another viv. my girlfriend seems to think i have "enough" of them already...

This post will have a few topics:

1. How heavy will the clay get? As we will building for a terrarium that is about 80 cm large (31.5 inches) and close to 40 cm in height (15.75 inches), won't the clay get heavy for the bottom glass of the aquarium?

I have put it on 20 gal tanks turned vertically only so far. 2 sides of the tank though. so one wall is about 24"x12" and the other wall is 24"x18" ... it does get fairly heavy, as its about 1" thick all around with added bumps, grooves, texture, shelves, etc... but i haven't noticed any problems. also, it won't be pressing onto the bottom because you'll be starting the clay a few inches off the bottom so you have room for your drainage layer and substrate first.

2. If I understand you, there's no need for a period of "curing" in this case?

not really... its safe to plant pretty much right away. the only "curing" is also the answer to your next Q. i have drip walls so i would like have them off completely and dry for a few days, then mist only for a few days, then 1min of drip/day for a week, then two minutes ... etc, etc... if stuff starts to fall off or it looks too soggy, i back off, if it starts to look dry, i add more time. with misters you'll probably not want to run them much more then a total of a few minutes/day anyway (spread out) so you'll be good to go within a couple weeks of being set up.


3. As you say it needs to be not too dry and not too wet, basically, I need to build the clay backdrop a few days before I actually start the mister?
see last Q


4. The idea of a drip wall appeals to me a great deal. I am thinking of adding sphagnum moss and pieces of cork in the clay, to your suggestion. But if I go this route, I will create drip paths. How long do we have to wait to start really using water on it?
see last Q

Q.: Don, Brett, do we need to create a small pond for these frogs? As my vents are so small, they soak in the broms. Azureus are slightly bigger... I was thinking that if we create a drip wall, we could have some of it fall into a pond that could be built at the bottom of the drip wall, somewhere along the wall...

it just depends on your preference. people always tell me that water features are unnecessary and for noobs because they waste valuable hopping space, but i still like them a lot. i guess it boils down to the fact that these frogs don't need the water. they will do just fine without the pond. On the other hand, since you're getting a pair, if you want to leave the eggs in the tank and let them raise their own, it'd be good to have a little pond for them to transport the tads to. just make sure that if you put it in it has a very gentle slope so they can climb out easily. they're not good swimmers. as much as people have told me darts don't need water, my azureus pair can be seen hanging out w/ their feet in the pool all the time. i think the reason they like it is because the springtails i throw in the substrate collect around the water and they pick them off as they come out.


Plants.

When I spoke to Sara my wife about creeping fig, she got really excited about the ideas of using it. So I am certain we will be using that one, and two orchids. The rest is still to be decided with you all.
which orchids do you have?

Q.: If we are going to plant seeds, does anyone knows which plant should be best, and the process/time that it takes?
never tried this, but interested in seeing how it turns out. its always a nice surprise then you get "hitchhiker" plants you didn't know you had popping up in places. the germinating seeds might be a nice surprise as well.

Q.: There's always the great lighting question. As I read often, it's often said not to bother for the frogs, but important for the plants. In case of darts and the terrarium we are all building, what is your thoughts on this?
i use 6500k compact fluorescent bulbs. they're cheap and easy to find, and my plants don't seem to be complaining.

Eric

[DonLisk]

Q.: There's always the great lighting question. As I read often, it's often said not to bother for the frogs, but important for the plants. In case of darts and the terrarium we are all building, what is your thoughts on this?

I also use the compact fluorescents on all my vivs except the new dart viv which I did T5 florescent tubes and were inexpensive at the hardware store. Labeled for saltwater aquariums.

Q.: Don, Brett, do we need to create a small pond for these frogs? As my vents are so small, they soak in the broms. Azureus are slightly bigger... I was thinking that if we create a drip wall, we could have some of it fall into a pond that could be built at the bottom of the drip wall, somewhere along the wall...

I'm going to agree with Brett here. I like a pond area and the last I did came through some cork bark and ran the cracks of cork to create a small pond below. Water filtered back through the substrate so no filter system was needed.


As for the creeping fig.... I added that to the darts viv yesterday and it looks awesome.
also added some Cryptanthus but not the pretty one at Josh's Frogs.

[clownonfire]

Brett, we have phalaenopsis orchids. As for the lights, I have some in my vents for the plants too, I will add some to the new terrarium as well.

I'll try and make a small pond beneath the dripping wall. I have an idea that could be nice.

For the clay, Sara seems really excited about the idea, as I am. I'm just slightly ticked that I had purchased already all the necessary tubes and cans of silicone and foam... I'll go do some clay shopping this week...

So, I think we're pretty much set for the next phase!

I will come up with a drawing (by drawing expect a very basic doodling), a resume of what we've all exchanged on, the supplies we have, and a time frame. And from that point on, once we agree on the plan, we'll start building I guess around February 25-26... I'll post pictures of each steps...

I'm quite excited on this one. Thank you, so far, to all of you.

[clownonfire]

Brett, one last question. Now asnI've never worked with clay, so you work directly in the enclosure or outside to insert it in after? If you work with it directly in the tank (which is the way ive done it in the past with silicone and foam), does the clay adheres to the glass?