Hybrids?

[Tony]

Mixed breeds of dog, and mixed breeds of cat, not cat and dog together!

You are comparing man-made varieties to wild forms that have evolved over many thousands of years or more in response to the unique selective pressures of their environments. It is an apples and oranges argument.

Some folks seem to think that keeping two varieties of D. tinctorious (for example) from different sides of a river seperate, because one has leg stripes and the other has leg spots, has some significance in this life and should be observed at all cost.

If those two forms of tinctorius represent distinct populations in the wild, then they absolutely should be kept separate in captivity. It has nothing to do with the phenotype, some populations are polymorphic but interbreed freely like Bastimentos Island pumilio, and some populations that are widely separated in nature express similar phenotypes like the various green and black auratus. What is important is maintaining the genetic integrity of our captive populations, if they don't interbreed in nature then they should not be interbred in captivity. It doesn't matter if YOU think a particular barrier to gene flow appears significant or not, if that barrier is enough to segregate two distinct wild populations it doesn't matter how small it seems.

[Whistly]

Not really about frogs but I hybridize my Bengalese and Zebra finches and they turn out fine and I've had no problems and if anything they look better than the pure bred finches, so if you can try and get two frogs with beautiful markings they should turn out quite good also ARMS87 a zebra x horse is called a zorse and another cross breed is the polar bear x grizzly bear so if it happens in nature I'm sure it can happen in captivity.

[poison beauties]

My question is why? If you cant find a natural variation or color bird, fish, frog or dog you probably are in the wrong hobby as we have about the biggest selection available next to plants and insects.
9 out of 10 times its all about the $$$. If our hobby wasn't 90% of small business's we really wouldnt have this issue. Up until a couple years ago it was a much rarer occurrence, now the new generation of ''hobbyists'' want to breed for the money. Otherwise we wouldn't see nothing but ''Proven Pairs or Sexed Pairs or Groups Wanted''

There is nothing in this hobby that a hybrid can fix, we are losing many of them in the wild and I'd like to think a few people would like to hold onto whats left, not alter it.

Michael

[smashtoad]

My question is why? If you cant find a natural variation or color bird, fish, frog or dog you probably are in the wrong hobby as we have about the biggest selection available next to plants and insects.
9 out of 10 times its all about the $$$. If our hobby wasn't 90% of small business's we really wouldnt have this issue. Up until a couple years ago it was a much rarer occurrence, now the new generation of ''hobbyists'' want to breed for the money. Otherwise we wouldn't see nothing but ''Proven Pairs or Sexed Pairs or Groups Wanted''

There is nothing in this hobby that a hybrid can fix, we are losing many of them in the wild and I'd like to think a few people would like to hold onto whats left, not alter it.

Michael

C'mon...why? Beauty, mystery, imagination, creativity, the wonders of nature and all the things we have yet to find out. You wouldn't want a fantasticus the size of a female mint if it were possible? Bullcrap.

Nothing in the hobby hybrids can fix? I have a trio of yellow terribilus that I have had for over two years. One is perfect, one has a "goiter" the size of a jelly belly on one side of it's throat, and the third has a crooked back and a slightly gimpy leg. No one, including the well respected breeder I bought them from, has any clue why...they just do. So, now my $300 trio that I spent two years raising is essentially worthless because I cannot in good conscience breed them.

So I'd say there are things that hybrids can do...starting with healthy frogs. So guess what? Enter the mints...stay tuned.

[wesleybrouwer]

Come on, it doesn't have to do with improving a species.
What improves a leatherback bearded dragon apart from it being "worth more"?
Or a snake with lovely colors, it just can't crawl straight forward anymore.

So we can go on.

Hybrids, are just man desciding that they don't have to respect nature,
they just do whatever they feel like.

Not in the interest of the animal, no just to please themselfs.

Like already said before, there are so many species, why do you possibly think you have to alter them?
This is what takes the world down, altering everything in nature, if that was supposed, nature would have taken action long before you even opened you're eyes.

I can tell you why you got yourself crooked animals,
nowadays, everyone like to get everything ashore.
Even if the froglet isn't doing so well, they just seperate it to let it grow some more.
I also have some bad froglets sometimes, buy they never make it to adulthood,
i am not going to overthrow them with food in a small viv just to let it survive.

As the say, money is the root of all evil.
And they are kinda right.

[poison beauties]

C'mon...why? Beauty, mystery, imagination, creativity, the wonders of nature and all the things we have yet to find out. You wouldn't want a fantasticus the size of a female mint if it were possible? Bullcrap.

Nothing in the hobby hybrids can fix? I have a trio of yellow terribilus that I have had for over two years. One is perfect, one has a "goiter" the size of a jelly belly on one side of it's throat, and the third has a crooked back and a slightly gimpy leg. No one, including the well respected breeder I bought them from, has any clue why...they just do. So, now my $300 trio that I spent two years raising is essentially worthless because I cannot in good conscience breed them.

So I'd say there are things that hybrids can do...starting with healthy frogs. So guess what? Enter the mints...stay tuned.

I have no interest in making Fants the size of terribs. I have favored the ranitomeya for years and have been working with them since 2003, If I wanted anything it would be for better husbandry all around. Id like to see better management and tracking of all lines, and locales here. There are too many unknowns still in this hobby to go off and create more.

Sorry to hear about your terribs but **** happens. Well respected breeders or not it happens and I dont see any reason you cant seek out another for the pairing of your healthy yellow terrib. I know many Breeders that could help you out there depending on the sex but juvies arent hard to get.

Your not going to fair well in the hobby with that opinion, Its been proven time and time again that its undesired by the hobby, Crossing terribs or whatever is just stupid knowing we have many unrelated lines to open up the genetics pathways with. Crossing locales is not needed.

Michael

[smashtoad]

If those two forms of tinctorius represent distinct populations in the wild, then they absolutely should be kept separate in captivity. It has nothing to do with the phenotype, some populations are polymorphic but interbreed freely like Bastimentos Island pumilio, and some populations that are widely separated in nature express similar phenotypes like the various green and black auratus. What is important is maintaining the genetic integrity of our captive populations, if they don't interbreed in nature then they should not be interbred in captivity.

WHY must they be kept seperate? WHY is it important? You "purists" love to announce, proclaim, and / or decree what should be, but you can't come within Pluto of a coherent WHY. Give it a shot. If you can't tell...I don't like it when people use caps at me and insult me as if I'm a lesser zoological entity.

It doesn't matter if YOU think a particular barrier to gene flow appears significant or not, if that barrier is enough to segregate two distinct wild populations it doesn't matter how small it seems.

Sure does...matters a lot. They're in my house, see. I'm the one breeding them . I am aware there are those who would love nothing more than the ability to call Brady Bahr on me, so he could kick my door down and rescue my frogs from the horrible prospect of a stronger gene pool...but the thing is, I would destroy that tail grabbing wimp...man I can't stand that guy...king of the Irwin wannabes.

Besides, next week a rockslide bridges the river and voila! Natural hybrids! Whooda thunk it??? So you're saying we should not, ever, do something that occurs naturally all the time? Nah...thanks anyway.

Not really about frogs but I hybridize my Bengalese and Zebra finches and they turn out fine and I've had no problems and if anything they look better than the pure bred finches, so if you can try and get two frogs with beautiful markings they should turn out quite good also ARMS87 a zebra x horse is called a zorse and another cross breed is the polar bear x grizzly bear so if it happens in nature I'm sure it can happen in captivity.

Dude...you are puttin some panties in a wad...back away slowly before they turn into that kid in school who had to be crying before he could fight, but when he started, look the heck out, cause he's coming like a feline berserker...kickin, bitin, pullin hair, and screamin in a language only Chris Crocker understands.

[poison beauties]

like you said NATURAL HYBRIDS, not idiot produced outcrossed Tinctorious Morphs. They are infact sperated by natural barriers and yes natural hybrids do occur, but to say you want to cross them purposely here maes no since. Why? Do you not have enough options as to color and pattern in this hobby? Do you really want to end up on the list that floats around the dart frog hobby on known hybridizers and be considered an outcast to which people will not accept frogs from you or sell you any? Think I'm joking? I bet if anyone else knows me they know I'm not, you seem to just want to start **** but go over to DB or DF and announce you liking of Hybridizing Dart Frogs, Even feel free to mention your practicing it. I will be waiting. Either way you name is known.

Michael

[smashtoad]

like you said NATURAL HYBRIDS, not idiot produced outcrossed Tinctorious Morphs. They are infact sperated by natural barriers and yes natural hybrids do occur, but to say you want to cross them purposely here maes no since. Why? Do you not have enough options as to color and pattern in this hobby? Do you really want to end up on the list that floats around the dart frog hobby on known hybridizers and be considered an outcast to which people will not accept frogs from you or sell you any? Think I'm joking? I bet if anyone else knows me they know I'm not, you seem to just want to start **** but go over to DB or DF and announce you liking of Hybridizing Dart Frogs, Even feel free to mention your practicing it. I will be waiting. Either way you name is known.

Michael

Wow...enter Chris Crocker.

Told ya...didn't even take 5 minutes. Hey Skippy...take your dendroclique and shove it. If I produced terribilus that were grass green...you think I would have trouble selling them? If so you are a moron.

[poison beauties]

Wow...enter Chris Crocker.

Told ya...didn't even take 5 minutes. Hey Skippy...take your dendroclique and shove it. If I produced terribilus that were grass green...you think I would have trouble selling them? If so you are a moron.

Maybe not but it would NOT be respected breeders/ hobbyists that bought them which again proves my point that all the hybridization and selective breeding for new traits is all about the money. How long have you been in the Dart Frog hobby and what well respected hobbyists agree with your views on this? I can name plenty that share my views both seasoned hobbyists and new. Ive been in this hobby since 1999 and EVERY hobbyist that shares those views are looked down on if not completely shunned.
Before 1999 I was breeding other herps and yes I know hybridizing and selective breeding is all they are about now. That is where many new amphibian hobbyists come from with those views.

Michael

[bshmerlie]

The thing with darts is that they body shapes all look alike. So sometimes its just the color or certain markings that separate different lines. If we start cross breeding it muddies the water. Now someone could unknowingly buy a frog thinking its one thing and it might not be. Yes I know everyone loves their mutt dog ....you've seen them...the german Shepard poodle mix. But when you look at them you know its a mutt. There is no confussion about it. But with darts that's not the case. It can be hard to tell. So keep them separate so that the original colors and markings will still be there for future generations of frog nerds. Please keep the conversation civil this does not have to be an argument.

[Tony]

WHY must they be kept seperate? WHY is it important? You "purists" love to announce, proclaim, and / or decree what should be, but you can't come within Pluto of a coherent WHY. Give it a shot. If you can't tell...I don't like it when people use caps at me and insult me as if I'm a lesser zoological entity.

Why? Because that is how they evolved and exist in nature. This hobby is about recreating, preserving, and appreciating a small slice of the natural world in our homes. Creating hybrids is an act of arrogant disrespect toward the product of millions of years of natural selection, it destroys nature instead of preserving it. If you want to be that guy there is nothing I can do about it, but don't expect to be able to sell many of your hybrid froglets. If you want to play mad scientist why not breed leopard geckos, corn snakes, or another species that has already been screwed with beyond recognition and spare frogs that fate?

[poison beauties]

Why? Because that is how they evolved and exist in nature. This hobby is about recreating, preserving, and appreciating a small slice of the natural world in our homes. Creating hybrids is an act of arrogant disrespect toward the product of millions of years of natural selection, it destroys nature instead of preserving it. If you want to be that guy there is nothing I can do about it, but don't expect to be able to sell many of your hybrid froglets. If you want to play mad scientist why not breed leopard geckos, corn snakes, or another species that has already been screwed with beyond recognition and spare frogs that fate?

There it is, the second person telling you your ways of thought are wrong. Go ahead and hybridize or outcross your frogs, Still waiting for you to post up your plans or ideas on DB or DF. Why not go ahead and seal your fait in this hobby as an idiot outcast. Your really must not know the hobby all that well because had you told the respected breeder you bought those yellow terribs from your ideas or plans chances are you wouldn't have them. Then again you may have meant respected hybridizers among your own friends.

Michael

[John]

I don't have a problem with people discussing this controversial topic here. However, I see far too much use of words like "idiot", "bullcrap", multiple ****, etc. Please, have some respect to each other, and to the reader.

[smashtoad]

Hybrids, are just man desciding that they don't have to respect nature,
they just do whatever they feel like.

This is what takes the world down, altering everything in nature, if that was supposed, nature would have taken action long before you even opened you're eyes.

As the say, money is the root of all evil.
And they are kinda right.

I agree with you on the money...my motivation is not money. Nature already did take action...where do you think all the different tincs came from?

Sorry to hear about your terribs but **** happens.

Yes it surely does...$300 and two years worth, and I have absolutely no recourse. These frogs are inbred, but the "respected breeder" can just say, "Mine are all fine..." and that's it. Ain't good enough for me.

How long have you been in the Dart Frog hobby and what well respected hobbyists agree with your views on this? I can name plenty that share my views both seasoned hobbyists and new. Ive been in this hobby since 1999 and EVERY hobbyist that shares those views are looked down on if not completely shunned.

I bought my first green anole from Boy's Life magazine in 1975 when I was 8. I've learned a lot in my years, and one of the biggest lessons is that "scientists" value one thing above any other: Having a crisis to solve to legitimize their funding.

Shunned? You are determined to convince me, aren't you, that there is some all knowing body of hobbyists that can prevent me from enjoying, buying, breeding, and maybe even selling frogs. I am too old to be intimidated by the clique thing...so you can save that. I don't require the approval of a clique to geek out over the wonders of nature. I usually do that alone. Give it up, dude...it's weak.

This forum isn't as fully infiltrated as some others by the hobby snobs...there are people here I can help...so here I am. Dendroboard is VERY informative...and I can milk it of all the info I need without commenting. I used it for terrarium design knowledge...and eventually modified Patrick Nabors' method to my own.

Dendroboard is as cliquey as they get (chameleonforums.com may be worse). Science is good! People are bad! All life came from primordial goo...you know what I mean.

I got myself some popcorn. This is more entertaining than the last season of Dexter.

Dexter is freakin awesome...very, very sad to see Luna go...or did she? I forget now...nice shot of stelzneri on your avatar...I love mine (I have 7). I am planning to immediately hybridize them with roccoco toads...

Wait...no one would want a 12 inch, four pound, jet black and sun yellow toad to display in their home in a fully vivved-out 200 gallon cube, would they? How silly of me. I am evil.

Why? Creating hybrids is an act of arrogant disrespect toward the product of millions of years of natural selection, it destroys nature instead of preserving it.

The first part is simply opinion (which we all have, right?)...the last part just makes no sense to me. Hybridization destroys nature? Whether we do it or a big windstorm does it...it is and always has been part of nature. It's real simple: If they can produce fertile young, that is God's stamp of approval (in my opinion) to breed them.

If you want to be that guy there is nothing I can do about it, but don't expect to be able to sell many of your hybrid froglets. If you want to play mad scientist why not breed leopard geckos, corn snakes, or another species that has already been screwed with beyond recognition and spare frogs that fate?

If I want to be "that guy"...nice. Your vision of nature isn't the only one. That fate? What fate? These are pets, man...just pets.

[smashtoad]

I don't have a problem with people discussing this controversial topic here. However, I see far too much use of words like "idiot", "bullcrap", multiple ****, etc. Please, have some respect to each other, and to the reader.

John,

I am trying to present my opinions in an entertaining way that is respectful as possible to those determined to prove me wrong with their unproveable Algorian opinions. My prediction of a Chris Crocker appearance has manifested itself in Michael, who I can write under the table with one hand while talking to my wife on the phone with the other. If he persists in throwing a cyber fit in my direction...I will continue to spank him with the written word.

Please know that I am trying to help him with his dendrocliquey idol worship. He can think for himself...I know he has it in him.

This subject always sinks to this...but I enjoy trying to show posters (and readers) that what they think they know about the natural world...they don't...and they do not like it...at all. Hence the Chriscrockerian fit-throwing.

I will not name call...but I would love for this to continue. My guess is Michael will fold similarly to a cheap lawn chair for one reason: his opinions are just that...opinions. Opinions cannot be proven, regardless of how many Al Gore followers stomp their feet until their "Michael Moore is a Stud" tee shirts are drenched with petuli smelling sweat.

[smashtoad]

There it is, the second person telling you your ways of thought are wrong. Go ahead and hybridize or outcross your frogs, Still waiting for you to post up your plans or ideas on DB or DF. Why not go ahead and seal your fait in this hobby as an idiot outcast. Your really must not know the hobby all that well because had you told the respected breeder you bought those yellow terribs from your ideas or plans chances are you wouldn't have them. Then again you may have meant respected hybridizers among your own friends.

Michael

Wow...are you gonna tell on me, Michael? I figured you for 19, maybe 22 or 23...but 30? Jeez...grow a set, dude.

[bshmerlie]

Wow...are you gonna tell on me, Michael? I figured you for 19, maybe 22 or 23...but 30? Jeez...grow a set, dude.

Comments like this show your level of maturity and not called for. Hopefully Mike is the better man and avoids rolling in the mud with you.

[poison beauties]

Wow...are you gonna tell on me, Michael? I figured you for 19, maybe 22 or 23...but 30? Jeez...grow a set, dude.

HaHa, grow a set? You really have no clue why I'm even here but I will tell you this there is no hiding behind a computer here and there is no fear of confritation so why not show up at Frog Day and we can debate this in person with a couple hundred other froggers and get to the point that I'm pushing. Your ideals are not helping this hobby and they are not favored by any one respected member of this hobby. Ive bred more dart frogs than you have had herps I guarentee you that. I have nothing but the interest in helping others as our hobby needs it so keep up the idiocy and send me your addy and I will send you a Don't Be A Hybridiot Tshirt. I bet you will look nice in the xsmall pink one.

I have offered you plenty of points on this subject. This hobby is gearing towards advancement and we will call your BS when we see it. You are free to continue the debate but calling me out will not make you look good. Everyone who knows me knows Ive gone to shows for no other reason that to meet people like you.

Ive got plenty of ties in this hobby and I invite you to post this stuff up on any other dart board and continue and see how well you fair, I will even send you an invite to a board we are building so you can post in private so the rest of the hobby doesnt have to see you run off with your tail between your legs because it will happen. You can shove your ideals of me folding like a lawn chair up your ***.

And just who is the respected breeder that offered you no more info that ''My frogs are fine''? I know most of them and the ones I do not I guarentee you they offered more info that that. Your lack of knowledge as to how this hobby flows tells me you likely messed up with your terribs. Inbred or not we have proven we can breed them to f5 and beyond without issue. You cant blame yourfailed project on anyone but your self. You want a real challenge and yes Im saying terribs are beginner level frogs try taking on Reticulata and give me a call when youve produced a couple hundred froglets.

There is plenty of posted info on the boards about proper care anything from Quarantine and testing to husbandry and breeding. You lost a very hardy species. Chances are you did it yourself.

Michael