Dart frog price tags

[JBear]

I have seen many diff. species(pretaining to newts/sals/and darts) being sold at very high costs. This is usually the result of rarity that the cost goes up. I can see both good and bad in this.

The good:

Professionals are most likely to end up with them. This is good, due to proven ability to maintain and breed frogs at a professional level.

The bad:

The price of some of these species is so high that 90% of keepers simply can't even afford to try and populate the hobby with CB examples. I think there are many keepers(particularly those who do not frequent forums) that are more than capable of breeding some of the ridiculously high priced species.

I think that high costs does more to keep a species rare, and does little to actually help CB population densities.

I want to be clear, I understand what a return on investment is, but once you break even, how ahead do you need to get?

If the species is a rarity and you have made your return profit, why not choose to sell them at a reasonable price to people who have demonstrated ability to care for darts on all levels, and not sell them at expos? This would do more for the species well being than farming them at expos to Johnny Knows ****, but has $100's to spend on impulse.

I am not speaking from a position that I think I am capable of taking on these rarities, in fact I am quite new. I do however know many people who do not come to these forums, but are exceptional keepers and have been breeding darts since they were available. A lot of those friends are not rich, and work hard to earn. Should these highly skilled keepers be denied the chance to contribute to a species based on cost and not ability?

I would love to hear any comments, and also, this thread was talking primarily about the pumilio's, and some other high enders...

Thanks!

JBear

[tjtreefrog]

I agree on the fact that high prices keep people that are perfectly capable of breeding these species from obtaining them, this is something I've thought about before. I'm an undergrad in college and I would love to get into darts, but I just don't have the money to spend on even some of the more common species. Part of this for me is due to the fact that here in southwestern Missouri, it is very hard to find dart frogs, so basically the only ones available to me have to be shipped in from somewhere else. So by the time even the most common species gets to me, it's around $80 for one frog. The closest I've seen to a dart frog here is Climbing Mantellas at the local pet shop for about $55-$60 each. I definitely wouldn't say I'm a professional breeder, not even close, but I would certainly try if the prices weren't so high.

[JBear]

I thank you for the reply. This is exactly what I am talking about!

JBear

[bshmerlie]

Its sad to say but its simply about supply and demand. If the frog breeds easily and there are a lot of them on the market the price will drop. If there are only a few breeders out there breeding a particular frog then they will be able to ask for a hefty price when it comes to selling offspring. Some people buy the rare frogs to breed them as a business to make money with. I don't see why that should be a bad thing. Its called capitalism and you see that in every hobby. Besides I don't believe anyone is getting rich selling frogs. The amount of money that goes into keeping and maintaining the frogs with equipment and supplies im sure sucks up a lot of profit. Also being expensive does keep some rare frogs out of the hands of some amateur hobbiest that shouldn't have them in the first place. The dart frog community is interlinked pretty well and youll see some breeders trading amongst themselves. Get involved in the regional dart frog community in your local area and start making relationships. Sometimes its also who you know.

[tjtreefrog]

Get involved in the regional dart frog community in your local area and start making relationships. Sometimes its also who you know.

I don't think that's an option for me. Like I mentioned earlier, It's hard to find dart frogs around here. Actually, it's hard to find any frogs around here. I've lived here my entire life and I've only seen Red-eyed tree frogs once at the local petshop. I got one when they were on sale for $40, thought I'd found an amazing deal. When I got crickets the other day, they said, "What are they for?" I told them they were for my Waxy Monkey frogs. They had no idea what I was talking about, they had never heard of them! So it's probably going to be a while before I get dart frogs.

[bshmerlie]

Yes living in a small town far from a big city is definately going to limit your options, but the internet is an amazing place. It allows you to get involved in the bigger community. Again it goes back to the relationships that you develop. I would have no problem giving away a frog to someone that I consider a friend on a forum. Of course they would have to pay for shipping. Frog forum is a lot like family..so get to know the regulars and make friends.

[tjtreefrog]

The amount of money that goes into keeping and maintaining the frogs with equipment and supplies im sure sucks up a lot of profit. Also being expensive does keep some rare frogs out of the hands of some amateur hobbiest that shouldn't have them in the first place. The dart frog community is interlinked pretty well and youll see some breeders trading amongst themselves. Get involved in the regional dart frog community in your local area and start making relationships. Sometimes its also who you know.

Looking back on this, I'd say that dart frogs are probably one of the cheapest frogs to breed and keep. They breed relatively easy compared to more common species like White's tree frogs and other tree frogs that require a lot more conditioning. They also consume very little compared to most frogs. Their food itself, fruit flies, is much easier to breed and more prolific than crickets or roaches that we feed to most other frogs. Space is another factor, and dart frogs require very little space to breed. So I'd have to say there are people out there that are making a pretty good profit of breeding dart frogs.

If keepers just refused to pay the high prices for these frogs, this might lower the price or it could be a sign for breeders to turn away from these species entirely as the demand has decreased. If the species is hard to get in the wild and there is little demand for them in captivity, why breed or carry them?

If only one breeder lowered his price (and his dart frogs were nice and healthy), the demand for his dart frogs would certainly overwhelm his supply. It would take the effort of several breeders simultaneously lowering their prices to effect a long term change. But who wants to do that when there are people out there willing to pay these high prices for them? And I would guess that even at such high prices, a lot people buying them shouldn't. Wesleybrouwer pointed out that if you want them bad enough, you will pay the high prices for them, however, I would absolutely love to have some of these rarer dart frog species (and I really want some P. hosii), but I simply do not have the funds to do so at the present cost of obtaining them.

[Leefrogs]

Did u see the new kid that's got picture perfect WC red eyes!!!! This so called well established species has been bread in captivity for what 50 years!!! Wild caught because prices are so damn high!!! WC established prices first, then breeders jumped on the band wagon. A sick cycle that CAN be stoped, especially now with chitrid, climate change, polutants, and clear cutting. Were just adding pressure on frogs by DELUDING ourselves thinking WC is not common. Get to the root, you'll find the worm

[Leefrogs]

There are WC common frogs all over the net. And why do u think that is? Because the price is so high. Diamonds was braught in as an example of what happens to other countries when we start to value what they have. If that wasn't odvious. And like debeers, and diamonds, innocent people (and animals) suffer, and the earth. Locals may only get a few dollars, and each person gets more as it moves hand to hand. And how many WC are probably marked CB. There's probably more than 50 posts on this site alone, where our gurus have told some1 their frog was probably WC. This cycle won't stop until the breeders bottom out price on red eyes, for example, then they will stop being harvested from the wild. But the breeders have to do that in order for it to work, since I cannot call up joshs frogs and offer them 5$ for a whites frog. Consumers certainly do not mark price. Don't we all wish.

[poison beauties]

What honestly drives up the prices are the hobbyists. To put more attention on one species over another is all it takes. Keep in mind that this supposed hobby is pretty much a collaboration of small business's which is how the reptile hobby got to where it is. Id like to think we put more science and teaching up front than other herpers do though.
You will never stop the interest in a profit. In order for a breeder to make a profit they have to breed the frogs which puts more of them into the hobby which lowers the price or value of that frog. Like I said before the only time I see this subject pop up is when someone cant afford or get a hold of the frog they want whether they are experienced enough to take it on or not. And like everyone else once they get that frog the idea of dropping the prices to give others a deal go's away. Everyone complained about the price of the veradero's until they got their own, now they want to know how they got to be so cheap and want to move onto the next fad.

Michael

[wesleybrouwer]

That is the best explenation there is out there

Just wait untill no-one want to breed the "cheap" species anymore,
when they seem to be gone from the hobby and someone mention them again,
wait and see what prizes they will be again.

I must say not everyone experience the hobby this way, but i think there are enough people who believe they can make a living out of breeding their frogs.
My tought about it, it is a hobby, that is supposed to cost me money

I think prizings are just what you wan't to give for something.
If everyone thinks it is to expensive, prizes had dropped already.
When there is so much available people also drop there prizes to sell of their offspring.

I bought myself 4 P.hosii a while ago, costing me well over €750 ($1000)
to me they are worth that since i was looking to get a hold of them for quit a while,
i just don't think i will be able to get my offspring sold for the same prizes
If you wan't something realy bad, i think you will pay for it.
If you don't wan't to spend so much on a species, maybe you just don't wan't them badly enough.
In my opinion also something to guarantee only serious people start out with keeping/breeding the uncommon species.
After they succeed, more will become available for lower prizes, making it reachable for more people, they will provide even more offspring lowering the prize even more and so on.
This is not a bad thing in my point of view.
If uncommon species are sold for bottom prizes, more people will think, well i just try them out, making them less carefull to what they do.

People i don;t tell the prize of my toads don't like them,
they think i am crazy traveling from Amsterdam to France and back to get them.
The ones that do know what i had to spend think they are awesome.
So i must agree, for some species it is not even bad to be in the higher prize class