Question about mice and frogs.

[Greg M]

I have encountered some field studies looking at the stomach contents of horned frogs, in particular, C. cornuta. Vertebrates appear to constitute a significant portion of the diet in terms of mass. In Duellman, W.E. & M. Lizana (1994) Biology of a sit-and-wait predator, the leptodactylid frog Ceratophrys cornuta. Herpetologica 50 (1): 51-64., for example, frogs constitute about 17% and rodents 34% of the stomach contents by mass. Clearly, vertebrates are an important food/calorie source for certain species of frogs. There is also a paper entitled "The diet of Ceratophrys ornata (Anura: Ceratophryidae) in Argentina", which I have not been able to look at directly, that supposedly comes to a similar conclusion.

My opinion, submitted humbly considering the posts of experts like Frank, is that rodents are just fine as a component of a balanced diet for certain species of frogs and toads. My belief is that excessive caloric intake may be the real culprit, as I have read reports that frogs fed a diet consisting solely of insects have still developed corneal opacities.

Hopefully, I haven't just painted a big bulls-eye on my bottom !

Greg

[Malachi]

Yes, you can tell just by their body structure. HUGE mouths able to eat very large prey items. The wild rodents may however be much leaner than the lab mice feeders.

[Beardo]

The comment about feeding only mammals causing issues with calcium deficiency is untrue. Rodents and other vertebrates have tons of natural calcium in their bones.....why do you think calcium supplements are not needed for snakes?

The big concern with feeding rodents is the high fat content, which in a largely sedentary animal such as a Pixie/Pacman Frog, can cause complications.

[onedge30]

Quick and too the point. Frogs are not made to have a high fat diet. This usually leads to liver and kidney problems and early death.

All mouse diet also leads to a weakening of the bone structure. This is due to the lack of calcium in the diet. The frogs system then steals calcium from its bones to live.

David, I will admit to a problem with the second comment above. It could be wrong for pyxie frogs. I have seen problems with bones with a rodent diet in Iguanas that are supposed to be vegetarian. The problems with the high fat affected the absorption of calcium.

First comment, we totally agree on.

[jelkins]

Ceratophrys ornata consumes primarily vertebrates; stomach content analysis of thirty-four specimens from Uruguay included 78.5% anurans, 11.7% passerine birds, 7.7% rodents, and 0.3% snakes, leaving only 1.8% as "other" (Basso 1990).

[jelkins]

I believe that frogs make up the bulk of the diet for wild ABFs and horned frogs. One of the reasons they can grow so large due to 'perfect nutrition.'

[Greg M]

Thanks Justin for the info from the ornata paper! I had read those figures somewhere, but couldn't find the source when I was writing the post... I was quite surprised to read that birds constitute a notable fraction of the diet! The field studies certainly indicate that frogs are a/the major component of the ornata diet in the wild (and insects seemingly are not).

In any event, with my own large frogs, I do feed mostly night-crawlers and Dubia roaches, with only very occasional rodents (out of an abundance of caution). I do, however, keep an eye on overall consumption and body-weight. IMHO, the fact that frogs can apparently develop corneal opacities and other health issues often attributed to rodent consumption when fed (to excess) a diet consisting only of insects argues that excessive caloric intake is sufficient (and presumably necessary) to cause these issues.

[onedge30]

Wow. So many birds!!! You would think they would be faster than the rodents.

For my big ABF I will have to think about chicks over mice/rats. Cool.

[Chomp]

I personally feel that the frog should only a eat a mouse every couple months. The problem with most big frog owners is that they feed them a a mouse or two a every week or two.. That is just way too much and guarantees a fat frog.

[chris2pher]

i feed chubz mice due to the large amount of bugs he can eat in one sitting. two pre killed mice a week with vita dusting every other week =2X a month dusting's.

mice 2 for $4 and change.

crickets 100 for $10 and 100 crickets is a snack to chubz

worms 12 for $6 and 12 worms is a snack to chubz

to see just how much he could eat i once gave him one mouse after the other to see when he would stop and lets say after mouse number 4 i had to cut him off or i knew he would kill himself. even now he seems so hungry after his 2 mice feedings and its crazy how he attacks me for food, these frogs are feeding pits

[Chomp]

i feed chubz mice due to the large amount of bugs he can eat in one sitting. two pre killed mice a week with vita dusting every other week =2X a month dusting's.

mice 2 for $4 and change.

crickets 100 for $10 and 100 crickets is a snack to chubz

worms 12 for $6 and 12 worms is a snack to chubz

to see just how much he could eat i once gave him one mouse after the other to see when he would stop and lets say after mouse number 4 i had to cut him off or i knew he would kill himself. even now he seems so hungry after his 2 mice feedings and its crazy how he attacks me for food, these frogs are feeding pits

why does he need two mice a week? thats way too much. Also not all of these frogs eat that much. I know of males who lose their hunger alot over time and rarely want to eat. I also know of females who are more aggressive and hungrier.

[chris2pher]

why does he need two mice a week?

i never said he needs 2 mice a week, i just feel that 2 is still under feeding from his reactions.

[willtilian]

my other male is getting only one a week but my Hannibal I gave him one and i had one more that i was feeding to my beardie he didnt want it was my first time giving him a mouse so i gave it to Hannibal, he ate 100 more crickets

[Spurrelli]

One aspect not mentioned in this thread is hypervitaminosis A.

http://aark.portal.isis.org/Research...0nutrition.pdf

/J

[sflyingcow]

I'm going to try the fresh water fishes. I have to drive very far to get live crickets. But minnows, wax worms, and nightcrawlers are avalible year round since I live in a fishing vacation spot. I do drive 80 miles round trip to get 100 crix for month. Trying to breed them. We'll see bout that. But--these fish are bread for fishing purposes (but seem healthier that Petco's) and are clean of disease. So this article helped quite a bit-- I want my whites to be BIG

you can ordered crickets like 1thousand online for cheaper then it prolly would be to drive 80miles just fyi and easier to breed that amount

[Greg M]

With respect to hypervitaminosis A, my opinion is that this shouldn't be a problem if you are feeding mice as part of a well-balanced diet (as Cookie Monster says, a "sometimes food"). Ironically, I specifically include mice in the diet of my Woodhouse's toads because they tend to develop hypovitaminosis A ("short-tongue syndrome"/squamous epithelium). I don't think it is reasonable to feed a diet purely of mice. My thesis is simply that over-feeding/obesity are the real cuprits behind corneal opacities and other health issues often attributed to the feeding of mice. Frogs overfed insects develop these issues too.

With respect to feeder fish, as I mentioned in another thread, in one study, chytrid was detected in hatchery ponds (which are often frequented by amphibians) and the recommendation was to consider the fish (and water, etc.) as contaminated and therefore potential carriers of chytrid. My personal guess is that hatchery ponds in areas where chytrid is present are very likely to be contaminated. Fisheries don't test for chytrid because it doesn't affect fish. I would be cautious...

As a side issue, from my reading, it is likely that fish stocking (along with the concomitant transfer of contaminated water, fish and microbes) is a highly significant issue in the spread of chytrid... Will take this up in another thread...

[bshmerlie]

I purchased 22 baby green tree frogs (hyla cinerea) for $40 bucks from a local breeder and I feed them to my two Stoltzmanni's once a week. I found the breeder on craigs list. They are pretty small but my frogs aren't very big. It provides for a balanced diet. I would try the baby chicks but I think they would be too big for my frogs. I've never fed pinkies but a random one on a rare occasion wouldn't hurt. I think the point with any frog is too feed as many different food items as possible. As long as that food item is something that they would eat in the wild. Other frogs are a main food source for larger frogs in the wild. We culture insects and worms why not other frogs for our large mouthed frogs?

[Greg M]

Hi Chery,

In principle I agree with you - frogs are the logical food of many large-mouthed frogs (horned frogs, etc.). The problem is that frogs carry parasites (nematodes, fungi, bacteria, etc.) that could potentially infect the animal you are feeding. Wild caught horned frogs carry very heavy parasite loads specifically because they consume other amphibians. If I was to use frogs as feeders, personally I would run them through the chytrid treatment, as well as Panacur and Flagyl, to minimize the bugs they carry. This is an issue not only for the frogs that you will be feeding, but also any other frogs in your care that might potentially come in contact with the feeder frogs or the equipment used for their culture. I wouldn't assume that frogs from breeders are clean.

For me, because I have a "clean" collection, I don't want to potentially introduce pathogens through feeder frogs. Even acquiring a new pet frog is somewhat of a pain because of the quarantine and treatments involved. PLUS, I just love frogs too much to use them as feeders (and my son would pitch a fit)!!!!!

[Dog Shrink]

Baby quail would be a better idea rather than baby chickens. baby quail are readily availabe here in Pa, and I know several who will sell the eggs or a breeding pair (they're real easy to breed from what I understand) for you to incubate yourself. You can find these guys by looking on the bulletin boards at a lot of local feed mill type stores, tractor supply usually knows some people, and the farm isting on craigs list or looking at your local county fairs. Baby chickens imo are just like adults beefed up on hormones, higher in fat and all the other bs, whereas quail is a leaner meat by nature plus a smaller, finer boned bird than a chick. It'd be like feeding a small finch to your frog.