Tree frogs and toads? large tank

[kittiekuddles]

I am currently setting up a terrarium. The tank is 220 gallons, 6 feet long, 24" wide and 31" tall
Plants will be Bromeliads, ferns, pothos and various tropical house plants. Bottom is river rocks and pea gravel for drainage, followed by a screen to separate the soil. Soil is a mix of peat and compost top soil about 3" deep
Other items in the tank will be driftwood, cork and tree limbs
Lighting will be 4x65 watt power compacts, i do have metal halides but i feel that may burn things lol (3x250 watt) so i will not be using those
Tank will be covered by glass lids with about 10% screened in the back for ventilation.
I also purchased a large lizard lagoon for soaking
I've gone through various species of frog and I came down to wanting a pair of White's Tree frog.
Then i thought the bottom floor of the terrarium will be kinda drab with no action going on, so is it possible to put a type of toad or other frog that stays on the terrarium floor and still be compatible with the whites frogs?
I was thinking of a Chubby frog or possibly an American toad (one or the other not both) and starting out at the same size.
Will anything like this work?

[Ebony]

Hi kittiekuddles and welcome to the forum.

Sorry but its not a good idea to mix species as they can secret toxins to each other which can be harmful. There are many ways to beautify the bottom of your enclosure. Mosses and leaf litter give a lovely natural look. have a look around at some albums to get ideas. I look forward to seeing some photos of your frogs.

[kittiekuddles]

Thanks so much
Leaf litter sounds pretty, I did buy a small box of frog moss
So i will just go with a pair of whites tree frogs. Do they ever come down to the bottom? my concern was will the crickets stay at the bottom and not be eaten by the whites frogs?
and then i will have crickets breeding and it will just be gross lol

[SethD]

I am currently setting up a terrarium. The tank is 220 gallons, 6 feet long, 24" wide and 31" tall
Plants will be Bromeliads, ferns, pothos and various tropical house plants. Bottom is river rocks and pea gravel for drainage, followed by a screen to separate the soil. Soil is a mix of peat and compost top soil about 3" deep
Other items in the tank will be driftwood, cork and tree limbs
Lighting will be 4x65 watt power compacts, i do have metal halides but i feel that may burn things lol (3x250 watt) so i will not be using those
Tank will be covered by glass lids with about 10% screened in the back for ventilation.
I also purchased a large lizard lagoon for soaking
I've gone through various species of frog and I came down to wanting a pair of White's Tree frog.
Then i thought the bottom floor of the terrarium will be kinda drab with no action going on, so is it possible to put a type of toad or other frog that stays on the terrarium floor and still be compatible with the whites frogs?
I was thinking of a Chubby frog or possibly an American toad (one or the other not both) and starting out at the same size.
Will anything like this work?

Well that is a large setup, and white tree frogs are large, tough, and bold eaters. If you want to mix species that isn't a species likely to suffer from it as long as a little common sense is used. The american toad is also a tough species that is a bold eater with a similar adult size( a large female toad would be best) and would likely do fine in there with a whites tree frog provided the size of the individual whites tree frog and the individual toad is similar so the one didn't try to eat the other. The "chubby frog" I wouldn't think was a good idea to mix for a couple of reasons, for one, the ones I have seen around are small enough that a large adult whites might try to eat one, for another they produce a sticky slime when stressed and would in my estimation be far more likely to cause a problem in that bi-species tank with a whites than the american toad.

Now I am only saying this because your post seems to be a cut above the average "can I keep my fire bellied toad with... " fill in the blank type posts. You seem to come across as the type of person that is capable of learning quite a bit in a short time. Mixing species can be done quite successfully, but you do need to be fairly knowledgeable about the species you have in mind as well as be the type of person that is observant, thinks things through, and has a certain amount of common sense. Otherwise your just flipping a coin with your frogs lives and health. Uninformed species mixers that have problems usually have them because they make bad choices due to not really know what they are doing. Because newbies to the hobby are usually the ones most likely to ask about mixing species and due to a lack of knowledge are also the ones most likely to make bad choices mixing species it isn't generally recommended period. It is just easier to say no period than to give a lengthy explanation about what will work, what will not work, and what might work but is a bad idea because it is a little to risky every time someone asks this question in one form or another. That said if a person does have common sense and enough knowledge to makes informed choices I don't have a problem with it and have done it myself upon occasion. It is up to you, but from the thought and detail you appear to have put into your post I think you are capable of doing it successfully should you wish to do so.

[kittiekuddles]

Thanks SethD
and its funny that you mention american toad because that is my second favorite, i was torn between which one to pick if i had to pick just one, but if they can mix then all the better. So i will try two whites tree frogs and i think just one american toad, unless the american toad needs a buddy?
Now i have another concern, the soil
I want to keep bromeliads, a few larger species in the soil and the smaller ones fastened to the driftwood/tree branches. Other plants will be tropical house plants
So right now i have my layer of rocks for drainage, a sprinkle of carbon ( a sprinkle was all i had left lol) and a screen covering that.
I stopped at the soil part because im not sure what to do. I bought top soil and peat, the peat was the fine powdery type stuff to be mixed in the soil. All the soil mixes for terrariums (with bromeliads) called for the use of either sand or pine bark, i chose not to et sand because its course and heavy, so im leaning towards (didnt buy it yet) pine bark to mix in with the top soil and peat for better drainage
But i dont know how this mix will work with the frogs/toads?
I want the plants to be healthy and have good drainage but i want the frogs to be ok too
im so confused

[SethD]

Thanks SethD
and its funny that you mention american toad because that is my second favorite, i was torn between which one to pick if i had to pick just one, but if they can mix then all the better. So i will try two whites tree frogs and i think just one american toad, unless the american toad needs a buddy?
Now i have another concern, the soil
I want to keep bromeliads, a few larger species in the soil and the smaller ones fastened to the driftwood/tree branches. Other plants will be tropical house plants
So right now i have my layer of rocks for drainage, a sprinkle of carbon ( a sprinkle was all i had left lol) and a screen covering that.
I stopped at the soil part because im not sure what to do. I bought top soil and peat, the peat was the fine powdery type stuff to be mixed in the soil. All the soil mixes for terrariums (with bromeliads) called for the use of either sand or pine bark, i chose not to et sand because its course and heavy, so im leaning towards (didnt buy it yet) pine bark to mix in with the top soil and peat for better drainage
But i dont know how this mix will work with the frogs/toads?
I want the plants to be healthy and have good drainage but i want the frogs to be ok too
im so confused

Your going to have problems with bromeliads with those two frogs. The toad will dig plants like that up when burrowing and the whites will crush them with its weight. You will need tough hardy plants that can take a lot of abuse. As far as substrate play sand mixed 50-50 with natural loamy earth collected from a wooded area is a good choice(you could mix in the peat as well). You can cover that with leaf litter or not as you choose. Pine bark is definitely not a good choice for two reasons, one, both pine and cedar bark leach things that can harm a amphibian, if you need to use a bark in your soil mix cypress mulch is the best. For another having any type of bark or mulch on the surface is not the best idea with the types of frogs your talking about because both of them are quite likely to ingest substrate while chasing down prey. You need something that can pass through their system without issues should they eat it and for that it is hard to beat dirt. If you want bark just to keep the soil from becoming as compacted you can use cypress mulch for that and just cover it up with dirt. That will keep it from being ingested. The toad may bring a little mulch up while digging around, but most of it will stay buried.

[kittiekuddles]

Your going to have problems with bromeliads with those two frogs. The toads will dig plants like that up when burrowing and the whites will crush them with its weight. You will need tough hardy plants that can take a lot of abuse. As far as substrate play sand mixed 50-50 with natural loamy earth collected from a wooded area is a good choice. Pine bark is definitely not a good choice for two reasons, one, both pine and cedar bark leach things that can harm a amphibian, if you need to use a bark in your soil mix cypress bark is the best. For another any type of bark is not the best idea with the types of frogs your talking about because both of them are quite likely to ingest substrate while chasing down prey. You need something that can pass through their system without issues should they eat it and for that it is hard to beat dirt.

ok, no pine bark
if sand is ok to mix in then i will buy sand
i can understand the toads digging, but dang how heavy are the whites? lol
ahh its all making sense now, thats why people with bromeliads have those tiny little dart frogs, they dont do any damage i guess lol
well dang this is a whole new ball game then, now what kind of plants am i going to get?
but on the other hand...the whites that i see sold are all small babies, will the bromeliads have time to root strong by the time the whites get big? how fast do whites grow anyway?
I take it most plants will suffer with the toad? if stuff im planting will be uprooted then forget about an american toad for sure

[SethD]

ok, no pine bark
if sand is ok to mix in then i will buy sand
i can understand the toads digging, but dang how heavy are the whites? lol
ahh its all making sense now, thats why people with bromeliads have those tiny little dart frogs, they dont do any damage i guess lol
well dang this is a whole new ball game then, now what kind of plants am i going to get?
but on the other hand...the whites that i see sold are all small babies, will the bromeliads have time to root strong by the time the whites get big? how fast do whites grow anyway?
I take it most plants will suffer with the toad? if stuff im planting will be uprooted then forget about an american toad for sure

The whites can get pretty heavy, they are a good size tree frog and rather plump as adults. There is a reason why most peoples setups for whites include thick branches and not a lot of delicate plants. The plants would suffer both from the toad and the whites. The toad isn't intentionally going to uproot anything but they do like to bury themselves at the bases of plants and plants without a extensive root system can easily become tilted or dug up all together. Brom's would be unlikely to do well with either type of frog. Yes there is indeed a reason why the most heavily planted setups with the nicest plants usually contain tiny little frogs like darts. Larger frogs can be a little more challenging when it comes to finding plants that are strong enough but can still grow in a terrarium.