Hello from Atlanta GA

[Tony]

It is pretty silly to get into an "I know more than you do" or an "I bred this and that and you haven't" argument. I won't be drawn into that as such is nothing but an ego match and ego matches make both sides look like immature children. Suffice it to say I have had fun in the hobby for a while.

Funny that you take this attitude now, you certainly didn't think that yesterday when you were trying to make it look like I bought my first tree frog ever 6 months ago.

[John]

Last warning folks, make this a mature discussion, with some fact-based opinions, or so help me, I'll turn the car around...

[Nelson]

or so help me, I'll turn the car around...

lol

can someone answer my question please???

[SethD]

Funny that you take this attitude now, you certainly didn't think that yesterday when you were trying to make it look like I bought my first tree frog ever 6 months ago.

I don't know why that would bother you, all I did was point out what you yourself have said in other forums and I even went to pains to say that I didn't know how capable you may or may not be or how knowledgeable. If you recall I only even said that much when you seemed to be trying to distance yourself from the dart frog portion of the hobby as if that wasn't where you got your views. It is to bad you anti-hybrid-anything people seem to have great difficulty in relaxing and having a reasonable discussion. It seems everything coming from your side is either laying it on thick and patting yourselves on the back, or insulting and name calling, or claiming that other people are attacking you. That is funny considering we don't go to dart frog boards with an abrasive attitude and declaring we don't care who we step on because our view are for the greater good and that everyone who is a "serious" hobbyist should see things our way and if not they are a joke. There is no reason why you guys could not have been welcomed here and even expressed your disapproval of hybridization in a proper manner, nobody was out to get you initially. You simply created a mess by rushing in like a bull in a china shop, calling names, and pretty much stating anyone who did not agree with you was an idiot. It is unfortunate that you and the other new dendroboard people felt the need to do that. It is a lousy way to introduce yourself in a new forum. I am pretty sure by presenting your agenda in such a nasty and aggressive manner you did nothing but unnecessarily create foes of fellow hobbyists that would be more naturally allies.

[Tony]

Why do you keep dodging the relevant questions? Let's hear one good thing hybridizing accomplishes for the hobby and our frogs.

[SethD]

Why do you keep dodging the relevant questions? Let's hear one good thing hybridizing accomplishes for the hobby and our frogs.

Thought I would touch on this a bit, new morphs and hybrids etc. have historically increased the number of people and interest in other portions of the hobby. How many people were into leopard geckos lets say when only normal looking ones were available? Some, but the numbers expanded a lot after more and more morphs and options became available. Some think that is good and some think that is bad I guess, but I personally think it is good. Now that I have answered your question can you give some kind of proof of why hybridization is bad other than the fact that you personally don't like it and fear it will prevent hobbyists captive CB frogs from being re-introduced back into the wild?(something that has zero precedent to my knowledge and is a very long odds shot anyway)

[poison beauties]

I really wasn't expecting to come back into this argument because....well...its stupid. But Mike, if you go back to the first page of this thread...you actually started it. You came to this forum out of deception...simply to start an argument. Seth's first statement was that if you're looking for an argument try DB. That deception, simply to start an argument shows your character. Everyone greeted you and welcomed you to the forum and you and Tony had to really dig to get the argument going. Even when people were making jokes and trying to stay lighthearted about it. If you wanted to start a discussion about the hybrid issue be professional about it next time instead of what has occurred here.

Like I just said Im trying to drop the BS from it. I did not come here out of deception and Im well known to help all who I can in this hobby and yes I throw my 2 cents in as well and make sure that the other side of the issue is presented for all to read and decide from.

Thought I would touch on this a bit, new morphs and hybrids etc. have historically increased the number of people and interest in other portions of the hobby. How many people were into leopard geckos lets say when only normal looking ones were available? Some, but the numbers expanded a lot after more and more morphs and options became available. Some think that is good and some think that is bad I guess, but I personally think it is good. Now that I have answered your question can you give some kind of proof of why hybridization is bad other than the fact that you personally don't like it and fear it will prevent hobbyists captive CB frogs from being re-introduced back into the wild?(something that has zero precedent to my knowledge and is a very long odds shot anyway)

New morphs and selctive breeding does not benefit the hobby due to bringing more people into it. Thats like saying its better to have a thousand herps than a hundred. Doesnt the quality and content matter?

As far as hybrids being bad go they take away from the natural representation and that among other things cause issues like people mistakingly or purposely trying to name new species or locales. What about the fact that hybrids promote fads and greed in the hobby? Then what> we have many other producing them and they flood the market. All over a frog that can never hold its value.

Michael

[bshmerlie]

What about the fact that hybrids promote fads and greed in the hobby? Then what> we have many other producing them and they flood the market. All over a frog that can never hold its value.

So what...its called supply and demand. So what if the market is flooded with$20 pink poka dotted tree frogs if people want to buy them. New people will come to hobby because of it and just like any fad many will leave but some will stay and that will expand the interest in the hobby.

[EpicFrogMan]

the dart frog community is a joke....

Let see what happens when i say it.. Will my rep go down more? will i be banned? i hope so

[SethD]

As far as hybrids being bad go they take away from the natural representation and that among other things cause issues like people mistakingly or purposely trying to name new species or locales.

Cite examples. I remember a few years ago in the dart frog hobby there was some speculation that new rivers and giant orange darts were of hybrid or mixed morph origin, I don't recall what the eventual group decision was since I didn't follow it that closely. Given the fact that those morphs are still available and that the dart frog hobby tends to have a strong opinion against mixed morphs or hybrids I assume it was decided that they were ok. I don't recall it ever being a question at all with non-dart frog species. It tends to be well known if something is a hybrid or not and there isn't a lot of confusion on the issue. Any examples of hybrid related confusion I missed or is this point of yours purely hypothetical?

What about the fact that hybrids promote fads and greed in the hobby? Then what> we have many other producing them and they flood the market. All over a frog that can never hold its value.

Everything you say about hybrids here would apply equally to natural morphs and different species in the dart frog community. There are cycles where a particular dart morph or species is rare, expensive, and highly sought after, then if the species is capable of it it is produced to the point it is common, prices come down, then a lot of people loose interest, then it becomes rare again and the cycle repeats. It is exactly the same thing as what you describe with "man made" morphs and both occur due to basic human nature. I don't see that as a good reason to condemn morphs and hybrids unless you wish to condemn the dart frog hobby as well.

[bshmerlie]

Why do you keep dodging the relevant questions? Let's hear one good thing hybridizing accomplishes for the hobby and our frogs.

Colors...I admit it....I like different colors. I can't mix species but I can have different colors. Why do you think people have mixed tanks? They don't want to see all the same animal all the time. Not everyone can afford a frog room with 50 different tanks. If all my red eyes were the same color I wouldn't be able to name them. and someday when someone breeds a pretty blue red eye I will be the first in line to buy it. Its called fun. Most of the people on this forum are hobbiest and they are in it because they think frogs are cool and FUN to own. We're not looking to reintroduce our blue red eyed color morph frogs to the wild. There is a place for the purity that your talking about but there is also a place for the hobbiest who wants to purchase a hybrid. They're not in it professionally they're in it just to have a pet. Yes Tony to some of us that "name" them they are our pets. Hybrids or color Morphs its the same reason.....and its called FUN. Not everyone here looks at their frogs as a business or an attempt to save the planet. My biggest gripe is that any frogs are removed from the wild at all for the hobbiest. For example, I think it should be something similar to what Understory is doing with the Lemurs. Take a few, breed them, then sell those offspring to the hobbiest breeders and then those breeders would have to be able to sustain the regular demand.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I think that the only real course of action here is for all of us "regulars" to just leave these two alone (Tony & poison beauties). It is just a matter or time before they get into an argument with each other over who is smarter then the other and they go back home to Dendroboard. This was a rather peaceful, open minded community until these two experts came along and insulted a large portion of the board with their rude, brash, insulting, "my way or the highway" approach. They have both proved that their is no reasoning with them and they are looking for exactly what we are giving them by arguing. Some people just like to hear themselves talk and these two are prime examples of that. On the other hand, for me, all of this has opened my eyes to the inner politics of this forum and it's merit system. I guess politics are everywhere.

[poison beauties]

I don't know why that would bother you, all I did was point out what you yourself have said in other forums and I even went to pains to say that I didn't know how capable you may or may not be or how knowledgeable. If you recall I only even said that much when you seemed to be trying to distance yourself from the dart frog portion of the hobby as if that wasn't where you got your views. It is to bad you anti-hybrid-anything people seem to have great difficulty in relaxing and having a reasonable discussion. It seems everything coming from your side is either laying it on thick and patting yourselves on the back, or insulting and name calling, or claiming that other people are attacking you. That is funny considering we don't go to dart frog boards with an abrasive attitude and declaring we don't care who we step on because our view are for the greater good and that everyone who is a "serious" hobbyist should see things our way and if not they are a joke. There is no reason why you guys could not have been welcomed here and even expressed your disapproval of hybridization in a proper manner, nobody was out to get you initially. You simply created a mess by rushing in like a bull in a china shop, calling names, and pretty much stating anyone who did not agree with you was an idiot. It is unfortunate that you and the other new dendroboard people felt the need to do that. It is a lousy way to introduce yourself in a new forum. I am pretty sure by presenting your agenda in such a nasty and aggressive manner you did nothing but unnecessarily create foes of fellow hobbyists that would be more naturally allies.

Is it me or are you trying to take the high ground by respectfully relaying your opinion and at the same time being disrespectfull to others? Doesnt go well with all the Religous talk I see from you on DB. I know quite a few hobbyists on this board and if making a great first impression is the most important thing oh well. I prefer to use my knowledge to help others and if I hurt a few fealings Im sorry but you came onto my thread this time to preach against my beliefs.
Im really not looking to argue this BS you bring. Your trying to turn it into a bullying issue when its not. Your trying to make it look like your being the victim here when your not. I could care less if you post on this thread against my beliefs unlike a few that got pissy on the other thread but lets try to keep it related to the topic. Not ourselves....

Michael