Hello from Atlanta GA

[Tony]

It is unfortunate that more dart froggers can't accept the fact that just because something doesn't fit their personal preferences and the accepted template in their portion of the hobby it is no Casus bellum on much of the rest of the frog hobby.

Have you ever stopped to consider where all of the major advancements in the hobby are coming from? Where the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate? Which part of the hobby has the highest number of captive bred frogs available, often with bloodline and locality data? The answer is the dart frog community. Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs. My goal in the hobby is to establish as many tree frogs species in captivity as I possibly can, and to do it with the accuracy and dedication that I have learned on the dart side. "The rest of the hobby" is a disorganized mess of casual owners, people who want to turn frogs into the next corn snake or leopard gecko, and a few true hobbyists who have the vision and the ambition to bring the respectability of the dart frog hobby to other frogs. If I can do my part to rally those few people and accomplish something positive I don't care how many fantasy frog owners I upset along the way.

[poison beauties]

Don't you think it is a little humorous that you come to the board by your own admission because you "heard about" the little anti-hybrid ruckus that one guy decided to raise over someone else's pet horned frog and now you are saying you think other people are out to stir something up because they don't agree with you? Remember this forum has not had a problem with anti-hybrid-anything extremists harassing people for their choice of pet frogs in the past, this is something new. Before no one found it necessary to lecture on the subject as if anyone who liked or produced a hybrid frog was an idiot, greedy, or somehow out to destroy the hobby. I also think your my way or the highway attitude about the hobby is a little humorous. Implying that if someone likes or has a hybrid they have the wrong hobby is kind of silly. Believe it or not yours is not the only point of view and the hobby does not begin or end with a narrow circle of like minded dart frog hobbyists who have developed their own personal code of ethics about all sorts of things and wish to thrust it into other areas of the hobby and upon other people that don't really need or want it. You won't succeed in doing that anyway, all that you will succeed in doing is in creating unnecessary conflict between many of those that are primarily dart froggers and those not so closely tied to that particular portion of the amphibian hobby. There is no reason why froggers from one part of the hobby should call froggers from another part of the hobby "greedy" and "unethical" just because they don't see the hobby through the same color lens. It is unfortunate that more dart froggers can't accept the fact that just because something doesn't fit their personal preferences and the accepted template in their portion of the hobby it is no Casus bellum on much of the rest of the frog hobby.

Absolutely its humerous, But not on my part to show up. Its humerous that froggers have been posting up hybrids and talking about mixing and noone other than Tony has had anything to counter it with. How are new hobbyists to decide what is best for them if all they see are pro mixing threads and posts on hybrids whether they are darts, toads or pacmans. Like Tony said, who are the most respected in our hobby? Its not the pacman crowd or the the ones who are mixing species or supporting it. Its us because we do the work. You are looking at this the wrong way. We are not trying to rule the hobby, We are trying to help it advance for all of us. We do the research, we do the bulk of the testing and advance the husbandry for captive breeding. We only want to help the other amphibians in the same way. And another stupid thing I hear is none of the frogs here will be used for reintroduction. Do you know why? Because more of you than not dont practice proper captive breeding practices in order to even pull it off. Do you think that the zoos and institutions can honestly cover the needs for an repopulation project? They cant and we will not ever be considered for doing our part if the hobby is divided on the simple issues. Simply put if and when there is ever a plan to start reintroducing species you will not have a clue in hell as to what it takes as you guys dont know **** about locales, line info and other little things like quarentine, testing and even how to keep your offspring and breeders tracked in order to continue unrelated lines for the benefit of their future. Do you know anything about acclimating frogs in the wild before they are released? How about setting up a proper diet and a variety that only dart froggers seem to practice? If you did know would you practice it as many of these species are on the verge of and will disapear from the wild in time. Without the help of a dedicated hobby the reintroduction projects will fail and wont be able to produce what we can. It seems to me you guys need more Dart Froggers on the boards helping to share knowledge that will better the hobby. If you have been a paet of the herp hobby for as long as I have youve seen the changes and you know where its going wrong. Is there anything wrong with wanting to know where exactly your frogs came from and what they are related to and how to go about continuing the lines without unneeded inbreeding or selective breeding.

On a side note don't let them get to hot, they are quite vulnerable to heat spikes a lot like most of the mantella species. I fiddled with them some in past years but found they really needed cooler temps than I could easily provide here in texas. They seemed a pretty tough and greedy little frog otherwise though. Stunning colors as well of course. I don't really suspect new breeding tactics are likely to be needed with this species, the same basic tactics that usually work on toads and other explosive breeders will induce amplexus and while I never got eggs I only had a small group and didn't fiddle with them for more than a year or so due to the problems with heat. Best of luck with them.

I know to keep them cool and as for the other needs I know them as well, Remember Im a Dart Frogger, we do our research! And new breeding and husbandry techniques are due as they have not been successfully captive bred here and what I have in the works in a group effort project on them and will be for the others to come. Im personally starting with twenty of them in a custom 8'x4'x24 inch viv with a few new advancments. Nice slow moving current and flood setup. I will be sharing it in time/

Michael

[SethD]

Have you ever stopped to consider where all of the major advancements in the hobby are coming from? Where the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate?

That is pretty subjective since most of the "advances" in the hobby dart frog hobbyists make are relevant primarily to dart frogs. As far as the dart frog hobby being where "the most experienced, educated, and knowledgeable people in the hobby congregate" sure there are plenty of knowledgeable people there. There are also plenty of knowledgeable people in other areas too though I agree the dart frog hobby is larger than the "other frogs" portion of the hobby.

Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs..... "The rest of the hobby" is a disorganized mess of casual owners, people who want to turn frogs into the next corn snake or leopard gecko, and a few true hobbyists who have the vision and the ambition to bring the respectability of the dart frog hobby to other frogs. If I can do my part to rally those few people and accomplish something positive I don't care how many fantasy frog owners I upset along the way.

You know I think most of that portion of your post speaks for itself. I know you have a lot of tree frogs right now. I also know from reading your posts in other forums that you have been spending a lot of money lately and got most of them within the past six months. As far as that is concerned more power to you. However if the vast majority of the "primary focus of your collection" was acquired within the past six months and by your own admission in the amphibian section of the gecko forum you had your first clutch from a "leaf breeding species" on 09/19/2010 I still consider you more of a dart frogger than a tree frog focused hobbyist. That is not to say you won't grow into one and its not to say your not capable now either, I don't know about that and I am not putting you down for that, but it is to say that you seem to have acquired most of your attitude and positions from the dart frog hobby and now seem to be trying to imply that you have not. As part of the "disorganized mess of casual owners" I suppose, I would rather have new people who may or may not know a lot, but who are willing to learn, willing to use logic, willing to work through things themselves, and don't have their nose so high in the air and think so highly of themselves that they are perfectly happy to step all over anyone and everyone, call them idiots, and view them as rabble purely because they have a difference of opinion on some issues.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Well said Seth

[Tony]

There are also plenty of knowledgeable people in other areas too though I agree the dart frog hobby is larger than the "other frogs" portion of the hobby.

Not even close, look at the pet stores, kingsnake ads and import numbers, the "other frogs" outnumber darts by a huge margin, but most of them disappear into the disorganized mess and die instead of being cared for by dedicated hobbyists.

I also know from reading your posts in other forums that you have been spending a lot of money lately and got most of them within the past six months. As far as that is concerned more power to you.

I got my first exotic frogs in 1993, a pair of wild caught red eyed tree frogs which lived under my care until 1999 along with a number of other frogs. I had to take a break from the hobby from 2000-2006 while I served my country, and rejoined the hobby in late 2008. Guess what frogs were the first in my new collection? Red eyes again, followed shortly by Phyllomedusa hypochondrialis. A little over a year later they are thriving and breeding for me, and my collection is growing now that I have the means to pursue what I have wanted to do since I was a kid with his first frogs 17 years ago. Sucking on mommy and daddy's teat instead of serving your country and making your way on your own does not make you a superior frogger, just an immature man-child.

[SethD]

Like Tony said, who are the most respected in our hobby? Its not the pacman crowd or the the ones who are mixing species or supporting it. Its us because we do the work. You are looking at this the wrong way. We are not trying to rule the hobby, We are trying to help it advance for all of us. We do the research, we do the bulk of the testing and advance the husbandry for captive breeding. We only want to help the other amphibians in the same way.

I get it, it's not that your trying to "rule" the rest of the hobby, it is just that the rest of the hobby is so stupid and unlearned that your doing this all for our good. We should be so ashamed for disagreeing with the the brilliant, hard working dart froggers who have come to giude us out of darkness into enlightenment. Forgive us.

And another stupid thing I hear is none of the frogs here will be used for reintroduction. Do you know why? Because more of you than not dont practice proper captive breeding practices in order to even pull it off. Do you think that the zoos and institutions can honestly cover the needs for an repopulation project? They cant and we will not ever be considered for doing our part if the hobby is divided on the simple issues. Simply put if and when there is ever a plan to start reintroducing species you will not have a clue in hell as to what it takes as you guys dont know **** about locales, line info and other little things like quarentine, testing and even how to keep your offspring and breeders tracked in order to continue unrelated lines for the benefit of their future. Do you know anything about acclimating frogs in the wild before they are released? How about setting up a proper diet and a variety that only dart froggers seem to practice? If you did know would you practice it as many of these species are on the verge of and will disapear from the wild in time. Without the help of a dedicated hobby the reintroduction projects will fail and wont be able to produce what we can. It seems to me you guys need more Dart Froggers on the boards helping to share knowledge that will better the hobby.

I hate to break it to you but the dart frog hobbys frogs are not going to be used for reintroductions either unless "maybe" and this is a big maybe, the species in question is totally extict in the wild. It is a dream, but a highly unrealistic one.

If you have been a paet of the herp hobby for as long as I have youve seen the changes and you know where its going wrong.

I have been following the hobby since the early 90's. It has changed sure, going wrong tends to be a matter of perspective. If your talking about high priced morphs and such, eventually it will balance out, it always does.

I know to keep them cool and as for the other needs I know them as well, Remember Im a Dart Frogger, we do our research! And new breeding and husbandry techniques are due as they have not been successfully captive bred here and what I have in the works in a group effort project on them and will be for the others to come. Im personally starting with twenty of them in a custom 8'x4'x24 inch viv with a few new advancments. Nice slow moving current and flood setup. I will be sharing it in time/

Michael

You know the attitude and level of arrogance you and a lot of dart froggers like you have almost makes me hope your project flops. However I would like to see more such species established so I wish you success even though success would most likely just add another level of silly arrogance to your attitude.

[Tony]

You know the attitude and level of arrogance you and a lot of dart froggers like you have almost makes me hope your project flops.

For someone who is a regular on Dendroboard you sure have a lot of hate toward dart froggers...

[SethD]

Sucking on mommy and daddy's teat instead of serving your country and making your way on your own does not make you a superior frogger, just an immature man-child.

Dendroboard Dart froggers, they are so smart, witty and lovable.

[Tony]

Dendroboard Dart froggers, they are so smart, witty and lovable.

When you don't have a relevant response, avoid the topic and make jokes.

[EpicFrogMan]

Most of you dart frog tree frog owners are sounding like a bunch of arrogant self proclaimed know it alls. This Tony kid comes to the horned frog section calls the whole Horned Frog community a joke, Bashed Philippe Vosjoli who has written more books and owned more animals than this guy will ever in his lifetime and the moderator didnt even care..talk about BIASED anyone??

Tony you have no impact in the herp world regardless of what you are doing up in boom**** Oregon. Your opinion = Garbage

[Tony]

Tony you have no impact in the herp world regardless of what you are doing up in boomcrap Oregon. Your opinion = Garbage

Thanks for yet another thought-provoking contribution Napoleon. Now run along back to your trailer park.

[Kurt]

Despite your repeated attempts to characterize me as an arrogant dart frogger, the primary focus of my collection and my real passion is Central and South American tree frogs.

Same here, my main focus are treefrogs particularly those of the Neotropical region. I also agree that man-made-morphs and hybrids are just plain wrong, maybe a little evil. Why do people feel the need to make wild animals into domestic animals? If you want something like that get a dog. What attracts me to frogs (and wild animals in general) is the fact that they are natural and untampered with, a slice of the wild. I want what I have to be just like I would find it in the great outdoors. I think that bringing hybrids into batraculture will eventually make the hobby more about domesticated amphibians and less about of the wild and mother nature, and I think that is just sad. Look at corn snakes, they're just about domestic animals at this point.

So people please stop tampering with the natural order. There are plenty of species out there to keep you busy. That's why I wrote the Meet The Frog Series. I wrote it to expose people to what is actually out there. Of course some of it is beyond the reach of most of us, but there are some in the series that are quite attainable. Just go to CalPhotos: Animals and be blown away by what you see.

[SethD]

For someone who is a regular on Dendroboard you sure have a lot of hate toward dart froggers...

I am only a semi-regular on dendroboard and since I personally pretty much got out of darts a number of years ago I go there mostly for what talk there is on other portions of the hobby as well as to talk to a few friends. I was on dendroboard for a bit when it first started several years ago, got tired of it and left, then came back this spring when the melanophryniscus started coming in and there was a lot of interest expressed in that over there. Otherwise my visits have been fairly sporadic over the years. Further I don't really have "a lot of hate towards dart froggers" I have friends in that community and there are still reasonable people over there. I don't have anything against dart froggers except what so many of them have become these days. Things change and while years ago most people in the dart frogger community were friendly and helpful now a large portion of them are arrogant, nasty, and think their collections and hobby are somehow going to "save the frogs" while also thinking anyone who disagrees with their point of view is an idiot. When I find a dart frogger that doesn't fit that increasingly common mold I have no problem with them at all and we usually get along fine.

[Kurt]

Remember Im a Dart Frogger, we do our research!

You seem to be insinuating that only the dart froggers do research, I can assure you that is not the case. I don't consider myself a dart frogger, even though I have some. I am a frogger. I look at the big picture and not just a small part, and I do my research, as do a lot of other non-dart froggers. There are plenty of non-dart froggers that I highly respect, more so than some of the dart froggers I know. A lot of the dart froggers I know are only interested in darts and there is nothing wrong with it, other than its a limited viewpoint. The order Anura is so much bigger than one family of frogs from the Neotropics.

That being said, I am 100% in agreement about hybrids and man-made-morphs. Couldn't agree more.

[JimO]

Wow! This is like watching a UFC match. I'm a peacemaker by nature, but I'm kinda hesitant to jump in and give any opinions, lest I get smacked upside the head from both directions. I don't want to be the ref who gets knocked out cold trying to break up a clinch and I'm too old to lose any more teeth.

I dare say that not all dart froggers are arrogant and not all casual froggers live in run-down trailer parks. The broad generalizations, while inducing pretty funny images, aren't doing much to keep this respectful.

I'm waiting for someone to suddenly stop, hear the sound of angels, see a lightbulb pop above their head, and say something like, "You know, you are absolutely right. I didn't realize how wrong I've been all these years." Uhhh, I guess not.

(bell rings) Ok gentlemen, let's fight!

[Kurt]

Most of you dart frog tree frog owners are sounding like a bunch of arrogant self proclaimed know it alls. This Tony kid comes to the horned frog section calls the whole Horned Frog community a joke, Bashed Philippe Vosjoli who has written more books and owned more animals than this guy will ever in his lifetime and the moderator didnt even care..talk about BIASED anyone??

Tony you have no impact in the herp world regardless of what you are doing up in boom**** Oregon. Your opinion = Garbage

First of all I doubt Tony is a kid. Second of all, I respect his opinion, as I do Seth's and Michael's. I find most people who keep pac-mans, Ceratophrys sp are the casual types, usually people that would that normally would be interested in and keep snakes. That is not to say all keepers of horned frogs are casual about keeping them. Like the White's treefrog, pac-mans are generally entry level type of frog to the hobby.

OK, now as far as some people "sounding like a bunch of arrogant self proclaimed know it alls." Yes, some of the dart froggers are coming off arrogant (dial it down a few notches guys), but so far I respect all of their opinions and find them to be indeed knowledgeable. You on the other hand, are coming off childish and insulting. Telling someone their opinion is garbage is not the way to win an argument. And this statement, "Tony you have no impact in the herp world regardless of what you are doing up in boom**** Oregon." just makes you come off as unintelligent and immature.

Moderators will step in when its needed. We are totally non-biased, we have to be to make this forum work. Of course we need to read the post or posts in question in the first place and it has become impossible for me to read them all. I used to, but the forum has become too large for me to keep up with everthing. If there is really a problem with someone's post you can report it and we will look into it. That being said, I don't remember receiving any complaints in my mail box on the subject. If there had been, one us would have looked into it and made a non-biased decision. After all, there are six of us, if there was truly a problem one us would've fixed it. If the moderators are unsure on what to do, they come to John myself for a final decsion or opinion on the subject. Again, not one moderator has brought this to my attention.

[Tony]

I dare say that not all dart froggers are arrogant and not all casual froggers live in run-down trailer parks. The broad generalizations, while inducing pretty funny images, aren't doing much to keep this respectful.

My trailer park comment was directed solely toward my favorite short man, not all casual frog owners. He has thoroughly earned my lack of respect.

[Kurt]

I'm waiting for someone to suddenly stop, hear the sound of angels, see a lightbulb pop above their head, and say something like, "You know, you are absolutely right. I didn't realize how wrong I've been all these years." Uhhh, I guess not.

Wow Jim you are really delusional.

[JimO]

Hey! I resemble that remark.

Wow Jim you are really delusional.

[SethD]

I dare say that not all dart froggers are arrogant

I agree and have said as much.