Hello from Atlanta GA

[poison beauties]

Good luck in your efforts Michael. What species are you going to attempt?

Right now Im starting with Scaphiophryne gottlebei or red rain frogs and will likely take on a few others over winter. I plan to post up my projects and show any success as I have new ideas on how to tackly successfull breeding and tad raising.

Oh man...I was hoping this would die. We are all going to have to agree to disagree. They are just different points of view. No one on either side is going to be able to convince the other. This conversation is futile.

This is just one of those topics. We may never agree but keeping it out in the open is something we can do to educate the new hobbyists which ever way they choose to go.

Let me just say a few things. First, I do appreciate having information available related to the many reasons not to crossbreed darts, even different morphs. I would never have known it was a problem years ago when I first became interested in the hobby if the information wasn't out there. As a result of becoming informed, I have not and will never create hybrid frogs and I'm pretty careful to document the origins of my frogs' bloodlines and I try to minimize inbreeding as much as possible.

Having said that, I can also understand the position of people who have gotten into frogs after having kept reptiles and many birds and mammals, especially domesticated species. We have to realize that many people have never been told that creating hybrids is a bad thing.

It's important to educate people, but it is counterproductive to question their ethics in this matter unless there is a documented history of wrecklessness and greed. And, most folks will have a serious problem if they are singled out as unethical. Clearly, it's generally considered ethical to create hybrids of domesticated animals, whether they be dogs, cattle, or chickens. Creating hybrid rodents for feeders that might maximize productivity and nutrition is considered a good thing. Hybridization in the reptile world is widely accepted and even encouraged and most people don't consider it unethical. So, if someone comes into the frog hobby from that type of background, they will likely not understand why anyone would call them unethical for producing a hybrid amphibian. I believe that educating is much more effective that arguing with them over ethics. Telling someone the rational reasons for not creating hybrids will be far better received that simply saying they're an idiot the first time the issue comes up. And since new people enter the hobby every day, the message will have to be patiently repeated over and over and over. It might get frustrating, but that's the best way to convince people.

Ethics and arguments over whether hybridization is good or bad aside, an interesting discussion would be what evidence is there regarding the potential impacts of hybridization on wild populations. Obviously, if a breeding program is intended to create a pool of animals for re-introduction, then extreme care must be taken to preserve the genetic integrity of the captive population. And due to chytrid, there could be an unprecidented need to reintroduce many species of amphibians in the future. But, under normal circumstances, is there any scientific evidence to suggest, for example, whether all the hybridization of red rat snakes (corn snakes) in the pet trade has had or will have a negative impact on the wild populations? I think this might be a worthy discussion that could be conducted without the personal attacks.

I appreciate the outside opinion on it Jim. These issues venture back to the reptile hobby mostly the snake breeders and I know the ideas in it are purely ideas of how to make the next fad and make a quick buck doing it. Hybridization ideas and practices get worse as times go by. We need to set a strong defense against it now.

Welcome aboard. Nice to somebody else feels the same way. I prefer things the way mother nature makes them. I can't stand hybrids and man-made morphs. It seems the snake breeders are the ones doing this most often. I don't need or want the latest man-morph/hybrid some ambitious breeder produced.

The natural beauty in these frogs are far better than any man made morph or hybrid. Glad to see others agree on this issue.

O wow looks like i found the thread of self proclaimed know it alls.


P.S. HYBRIDS FOR LIFE

No you just found out where the smart people are posting thats all. Care to add anything slightly intelligent or atleast hobby related opinion to it?


There seems to be a problem here. Im seeing alot of opinion supporting hybridization and it seems to mostly be those who say they dont mix. Im wondering if some of you arent just out to start ****. If you seriously cant find a natural frog you actually like than this hobby is not for you. How do you figure your going to like the new hybrid your creating until you see it morph out. Seems like a long shot to me and more likely your just looking for a new fad and quick buck like I said. If you plan to see our hobby crash out like the rest of the herp hobby your on your way so keep it up. There seems to be more interest in the scientific and research end of our part of the hobby and if its going to advance it needs to be done as a whole. Hybridization is not natural and is not the key. We have chytrid and other things to deal with now and another issue that needs to be brought to the light is keeping locale data on our amphibians as there are unrelated populations from seperate locales that need to be noted and kept track of. How do you do this with a hybrid? How do you do anything with a hybrid? You know what Ive told dart breeders for years when they throw out that oops I ''Accidentally'' created a hybrid? You need to learn what culling is. Possible hybrids would have never made it passed the egg stage on my end. If you are doing this ask your self why. Is there any reason to do this other than creating a fad or making some money? Its surely not helping out anything else. Why try and change the natural order of things? Mother nature cant be bested, There are plenty of choices out there for frogs, Hybrids are not needed, Stop mixing.

Michael