Hello from Atlanta GA

[Tony]

Actually my comment was just to point out why you probably wouldn't consider them pets. Nothing more.

I don't consider them pets because they simply can't be. They don't have the brain structure to be able to recognize their owner or have any sort of meaningful interaction beyond simple stimulus-response. If you want a pet get a mammal or a bird.

[SethD]

Your mixing of these frogs is not at all like dogs, cats or other animals that can reproduce across morphs. It encourages others to hybridize them and causes them to die off faster from this earth. Thus you are working against God's design for them on this earth. If you truly value God's Word above all else, you will rescind your position and stop foolish arguments which benefit no one.

I will say no more or have a foolish argument with you about this any further.

That is quite a stretch don't you think? Beside the off topic biblical question of exactly what a "kind" is(it is broader than species) I fail to see how captive frog hybrids makes frogs die off faster. Any examples of this occurring or is this pure conjecture on your part based on emotion?

[bshmerlie]

You know...this conversation could have been easier in a chat room.

[Tony]

You know...this conversation could have been easier in a chat room.

This conversation is much more valuable out on the boards where people can read it at any time, there is plenty to learn from for those who care.

[poison beauties]

Yes, I know it. I argue for them not so much out of personal interest in them(never actually bought or had a hybrid frog) but because I think a lot of froggers get so stuck in group thought that they don't think for themselves. This limits innovation in anything not approved by the group. I have seen a lot of smart people that could have done a lot for the hobby be shot down by group thought. Instead they became pretty much like everybody else. This group mentality constricts the hobby a great deal. Everyone wants to be well thought of, and nobody want to contradict conventional wisdom even if conventional wisdom is based on emotion instead of fact. Now I don't think conventional wisdom should be thrown out just because it is conventional, but it should be examined to see if it really makes sense or not. If that sort of thinking bothers people, that is unfortunate, but the hobby advances only slowly without it.



Frankly my rep among your dendroboard buddies is no great concern of mine. I only have a few friends there anyway and I doubt they would have a fit since they tend to be reasonable people. Probably 80% of my frogs are wild caught too since I enjoy working with species either uncommonly or never bred before in the hobby so you or your buddies not selling me frogs wouldn't bug me much either. If someone is such a snob that they would refuse to do business with or would look down on someone who produced hybrids to make a point and labeled them as such they are probably not the sort of person I would get along with anyway in the long term. I encourage people to experiment and try things for themselves, within reason of course.



Lol, one thing I don't much care for is threats. I was half joking but I can probably be pushed into actually doing it. I vist dendroboard because there are some good guys there, but there are also a lot of people that act like lemmings unfortunately.

First off I threatened noone and secondly if you think there are that many people over there that would be ok with you producing or working with hybrids you really not in touch with the dart frog hobby or not near as in touch with it as I am. creating hybrids is breaking one of the golden rules as there is much more work going on with darts as far as locale, import and line data than any other frogs you work with. The darts are a beautifull natural representation of whats out there and many want it to stay that way.

And as for only wanting to work with rare or unbred captive frogs thats fine and many need to be bred here to decrease the demand for importing. I have worked with a few of the hardest to breed and keep thriving species and some were before these boards were even up and running. Im also collecting a few species from madagascar to take on that have never been successfully bred in captivity. That still does not take away from the hybrid issues,

Michael

[John911]

And as for only wanting to work with rare or unbred captive frogs thats fine and many need to be bred here to decrease the demand for importing. I have worked with a few of the hardest to breed and keep thriving species and some were before these boards were even up and running. Im also collecting a few species from madagascar to take on that have never been successfully bred in captivity. That still does not take away from the hybrid issues,

Michael

Good luck in your efforts Michael. What species are you going to attempt?

[SethD]

if you think there are that many people over there that would be ok with you producing or working with hybrids you really not in touch with the dart frog hobby or not near as in touch with it as I am. creating hybrids is breaking one of the golden rules as there is much more work going on with darts as far as locale, import and line data than any other frogs you work with. The darts are a beautifull natural representation of whats out there and many want it to stay that way.

For one thing I didn't say there are many people over on dendroboard that wouldn't have an issue with it, I am sure a lot of them would have a fit if they found out someone hybridized something even if it was a species they had no interest in and know little about anyway. What I said was that I only have a few friends over there to begin with and they tend to be reasonable enough people that they aren't going to panic at the mention of a hybrid frog that isn't going to hurt a thing. I think they are capable of looking at issues like this from a practical point of view without allowing emotion to run away with them. I also wasn't talking about hybrid darts. I understand the initial practical reasoning behind not mixing those before all the emotion that is now mixed into the issue arose. The initial main reason for not hybridizing darts is that there is a huge variety of species and morphs with new morphs not infrequently being discovered and coming into the hobby and therefore hybrids could be confusing. That still holds true today.

None of that is a problem though with horned frogs or other species with not nearly as much variety, where only a handful of people breed them, and where hybrids tend to be obvious and or infertile. I also don't see a real problem with hybrids in cases where natural wild hybrids occur with considerable frequency in areas where species ranges overlap, toads within the bufo americanus species group being a excellent and easily observed example of that. In situations like that hybrids are no big deal. All the toads in the americanus group, woodhousii, microscaphus, terrestris, fowleri, hemiophrys, americanus, and houstonensis are capable of producing fertile crosses with other species in that group(see some of the work frank blair of the university of texas did regarding hybridization in toads all the way back back in the 50's-70's) and do so when habitat overlaps in spite of differences in the males calls. The offspring integrate back into the population frequently producing completely natural and obvious hybrid zones with it now being possible to trace gene flow via genetic markers even farther into areas where a species looks "pure" and there is no longer any range overlap. If there is a market for hybrids in those categories for what ever reason then fine, it hurts nothing. It is no more a problem than producing color morphs of a "pure" species. I don't know if you have a problem with that too or not, some in the anti-hybrid-anything crowd do and some don't, but I don't see a problem with either.

[bshmerlie]

Oh man...I was hoping this would die. We are all going to have to agree to disagree. They are just different points of view. No one on either side is going to be able to convince the other. This conversation is futile.

[JimO]

Let me just say a few things. First, I do appreciate having information available related to the many reasons not to crossbreed darts, even different morphs. I would never have known it was a problem years ago when I first became interested in the hobby if the information wasn't out there. As a result of becoming informed, I have not and will never create hybrid frogs and I'm pretty careful to document the origins of my frogs' bloodlines and I try to minimize inbreeding as much as possible.

Having said that, I can also understand the position of people who have gotten into frogs after having kept reptiles and many birds and mammals, especially domesticated species. We have to realize that many people have never been told that creating hybrids is a bad thing.

It's important to educate people, but it is counterproductive to question their ethics in this matter unless there is a documented history of wrecklessness and greed. And, most folks will have a serious problem if they are singled out as unethical. Clearly, it's generally considered ethical to create hybrids of domesticated animals, whether they be dogs, cattle, or chickens. Creating hybrid rodents for feeders that might maximize productivity and nutrition is considered a good thing. Hybridization in the reptile world is widely accepted and even encouraged and most people don't consider it unethical. So, if someone comes into the frog hobby from that type of background, they will likely not understand why anyone would call them unethical for producing a hybrid amphibian. I believe that educating is much more effective that arguing with them over ethics. Telling someone the rational reasons for not creating hybrids will be far better received that simply saying they're an idiot the first time the issue comes up. And since new people enter the hobby every day, the message will have to be patiently repeated over and over and over. It might get frustrating, but that's the best way to convince people.

Ethics and arguments over whether hybridization is good or bad aside, an interesting discussion would be what evidence is there regarding the potential impacts of hybridization on wild populations. Obviously, if a breeding program is intended to create a pool of animals for re-introduction, then extreme care must be taken to preserve the genetic integrity of the captive population. And due to chytrid, there could be an unprecidented need to reintroduce many species of amphibians in the future. But, under normal circumstances, is there any scientific evidence to suggest, for example, whether all the hybridization of red rat snakes (corn snakes) in the pet trade has had or will have a negative impact on the wild populations? I think this might be a worthy discussion that could be conducted without the personal attacks.

[John]

If anyone thought I was trying to imitate Dendroboard when I started FrogForum, it sure looks like I'm succeeding. At least it hasn't degenerated into name calling like the pacman thread.

To those involved in this thread: If you must have this conversation, at least flesh it out with some facts and useful information. 99% of the 4 pages so far have been opinion rather than facts. Hey, how about some references?

JimO: I welcome the mature and thoughtful tone of your post - thank you. However, regarding reintroductions to the wild, the scientific community will never reintroduce anything that has gone through the hobbyist. It's sad but true (and there is at least some sound reasoning to it). That's what saddens me about Tree Walkers International - the taxon management plans are little more than a way for hobbyists to make themselves feel relevant some how. I'm a member of TWI but I firmly believe that conservation and saving species are beyond the scope of that organization. Better to donate money to charities working on the ground, and fund scientific conservation-relevant research as we do on Caudata.org in partnership with Amphibian Ark.

[Kurt]

So you support Hybrid creation Tony? Greed has no place in this hobby where we need to do more to help out the conservation projects and keep lines and site data availible for better tracking. I personally think people who do this are idiots. you hybridize cittters and I will mix words.,,,,Dont be a Hybridiot!

Michael

Welcome aboard. Nice to somebody else feels the same way. I prefer things the way mother nature makes them. I can't stand hybrids and man-made morphs. It seems the snake breeders are the ones doing this most often. I don't need or want the latest man-morph/hybrid some ambitious breeder produced.

[EpicFrogMan]

O wow looks like i found the thread of self proclaimed know it alls.

P.S. HYBRIDS FOR LIFE

[Tony]

O wow looks like i found the thread of self proclaimed know it alls.

P.S. HYBRIDS FOR LIFE

[SethD]

[

For every napoleon there is an iron duke. But who cares? Life goes on.

[John]

I could have sworn we had an age requirement of 13 or older on this site. Looks like it's not working.

[SethD]

I could have sworn we had an age requirement of 13 or older on this site. Looks like it's not working.

Don't you appreciated art John? Everyone, group laugh show the the mods/admins it isn't to serious. If someone can't do that much they need to stop taking themselves so seriously, I chuckled at the napoleon pic.

[Kurt]

I guess I missed the joke. No idea why Napoleon is funny.

[poison beauties]

Good luck in your efforts Michael. What species are you going to attempt?

Right now Im starting with Scaphiophryne gottlebei or red rain frogs and will likely take on a few others over winter. I plan to post up my projects and show any success as I have new ideas on how to tackly successfull breeding and tad raising.

Oh man...I was hoping this would die. We are all going to have to agree to disagree. They are just different points of view. No one on either side is going to be able to convince the other. This conversation is futile.

This is just one of those topics. We may never agree but keeping it out in the open is something we can do to educate the new hobbyists which ever way they choose to go.

Let me just say a few things. First, I do appreciate having information available related to the many reasons not to crossbreed darts, even different morphs. I would never have known it was a problem years ago when I first became interested in the hobby if the information wasn't out there. As a result of becoming informed, I have not and will never create hybrid frogs and I'm pretty careful to document the origins of my frogs' bloodlines and I try to minimize inbreeding as much as possible.

Having said that, I can also understand the position of people who have gotten into frogs after having kept reptiles and many birds and mammals, especially domesticated species. We have to realize that many people have never been told that creating hybrids is a bad thing.

It's important to educate people, but it is counterproductive to question their ethics in this matter unless there is a documented history of wrecklessness and greed. And, most folks will have a serious problem if they are singled out as unethical. Clearly, it's generally considered ethical to create hybrids of domesticated animals, whether they be dogs, cattle, or chickens. Creating hybrid rodents for feeders that might maximize productivity and nutrition is considered a good thing. Hybridization in the reptile world is widely accepted and even encouraged and most people don't consider it unethical. So, if someone comes into the frog hobby from that type of background, they will likely not understand why anyone would call them unethical for producing a hybrid amphibian. I believe that educating is much more effective that arguing with them over ethics. Telling someone the rational reasons for not creating hybrids will be far better received that simply saying they're an idiot the first time the issue comes up. And since new people enter the hobby every day, the message will have to be patiently repeated over and over and over. It might get frustrating, but that's the best way to convince people.

Ethics and arguments over whether hybridization is good or bad aside, an interesting discussion would be what evidence is there regarding the potential impacts of hybridization on wild populations. Obviously, if a breeding program is intended to create a pool of animals for re-introduction, then extreme care must be taken to preserve the genetic integrity of the captive population. And due to chytrid, there could be an unprecidented need to reintroduce many species of amphibians in the future. But, under normal circumstances, is there any scientific evidence to suggest, for example, whether all the hybridization of red rat snakes (corn snakes) in the pet trade has had or will have a negative impact on the wild populations? I think this might be a worthy discussion that could be conducted without the personal attacks.

I appreciate the outside opinion on it Jim. These issues venture back to the reptile hobby mostly the snake breeders and I know the ideas in it are purely ideas of how to make the next fad and make a quick buck doing it. Hybridization ideas and practices get worse as times go by. We need to set a strong defense against it now.

Welcome aboard. Nice to somebody else feels the same way. I prefer things the way mother nature makes them. I can't stand hybrids and man-made morphs. It seems the snake breeders are the ones doing this most often. I don't need or want the latest man-morph/hybrid some ambitious breeder produced.

The natural beauty in these frogs are far better than any man made morph or hybrid. Glad to see others agree on this issue.

O wow looks like i found the thread of self proclaimed know it alls.


P.S. HYBRIDS FOR LIFE

No you just found out where the smart people are posting thats all. Care to add anything slightly intelligent or atleast hobby related opinion to it?


There seems to be a problem here. Im seeing alot of opinion supporting hybridization and it seems to mostly be those who say they dont mix. Im wondering if some of you arent just out to start ****. If you seriously cant find a natural frog you actually like than this hobby is not for you. How do you figure your going to like the new hybrid your creating until you see it morph out. Seems like a long shot to me and more likely your just looking for a new fad and quick buck like I said. If you plan to see our hobby crash out like the rest of the herp hobby your on your way so keep it up. There seems to be more interest in the scientific and research end of our part of the hobby and if its going to advance it needs to be done as a whole. Hybridization is not natural and is not the key. We have chytrid and other things to deal with now and another issue that needs to be brought to the light is keeping locale data on our amphibians as there are unrelated populations from seperate locales that need to be noted and kept track of. How do you do this with a hybrid? How do you do anything with a hybrid? You know what Ive told dart breeders for years when they throw out that oops I ''Accidentally'' created a hybrid? You need to learn what culling is. Possible hybrids would have never made it passed the egg stage on my end. If you are doing this ask your self why. Is there any reason to do this other than creating a fad or making some money? Its surely not helping out anything else. Why try and change the natural order of things? Mother nature cant be bested, There are plenty of choices out there for frogs, Hybrids are not needed, Stop mixing.

Michael

[SethD]

There seems to be a problem here. Im seeing alot of opinion supporting hybridization and it seems to mostly be those who say they dont mix. Im wondering if some of you arent just out to start ****. If you seriously cant find a natural frog you actually like than this hobby is not for you.

Don't you think it is a little humorous that you come to the board by your own admission because you "heard about" the little anti-hybrid ruckus that one guy decided to raise over someone else's pet horned frog and now you are saying you think other people are out to stir something up because they don't agree with you? Remember this forum has not had a problem with anti-hybrid-anything extremists harassing people for their choice of pet frogs in the past, this is something new. Before no one found it necessary to lecture on the subject as if anyone who liked or produced a hybrid frog was an idiot, greedy, or somehow out to destroy the hobby. I also think your my way or the highway attitude about the hobby is a little humorous. Implying that if someone likes or has a hybrid they have the wrong hobby is kind of silly. Believe it or not yours is not the only point of view and the hobby does not begin or end with a narrow circle of like minded dart frog hobbyists who have developed their own personal code of ethics about all sorts of things and wish to thrust it into other areas of the hobby and upon other people that don't really need or want it. You won't succeed in doing that anyway, all that you will succeed in doing is in creating unnecessary conflict between many of those that are primarily dart froggers and those not so closely tied to that particular portion of the amphibian hobby. There is no reason why froggers from one part of the hobby should call froggers from another part of the hobby "greedy" and "unethical" just because they don't see the hobby through the same color lens. It is unfortunate that more dart froggers can't accept the fact that just because something doesn't fit their personal preferences and the accepted template in their portion of the hobby it is no Casus bellum on much of the rest of the frog hobby.

[SethD]

Right now Im starting with Scaphiophryne gottlebei or red rain frogs and will likely take on a few others over winter. I plan to post up my projects and show any success as I have new ideas on how to tackly successfull breeding and tad raising.

On a side note don't let them get to hot, they are quite vulnerable to heat spikes a lot like most of the mantella species. I fiddled with them some in past years but found they really needed cooler temps than I could easily provide here in texas. They seemed a pretty tough and greedy little frog otherwise though. Stunning colors as well of course. I don't really suspect new breeding tactics are likely to be needed with this species, the same basic tactics that usually work on toads and other explosive breeders will induce amplexus and while I never got eggs I only had a small group and didn't fiddle with them for more than a year or so due to the problems with heat. Best of luck with them.