Hello from Atlanta GA

[SethD]

Like I said $20 dollar frogs whether pure or hybrid are continuously being looked at like a throwaway frog. Take Auratus for example. Have you noticed how in just the last year or so the average new member gos straight into thumbs and pums and all but says the cheaper beginner frogs are worthless. That is what I meant by throw away frogs. I think frogs are frogs and Im probably the least greedy frogger in the hobby if you want to know a bit about me.

Auratus has been in the 20$ range for many, many years, sure sometimes you would see them for more than that but you could always get them in the 20$ range if you kept any eye out. Prices for those have not come down a great deal. As far as beginners going "straight into thumbs" I think that is fueled more by snobbery in the dart frog community than anything. There is a perception(and it tends to be accurate) that if other people in the dart frog community don't think what you have are "advanced" level dart frogs you won't get any respect and will be looked down on. Beginners want to fit in, be accepted and be respected so they are often influenced by what gets the hype rather than picking what they would pick if they were not influenced by what others thought was more "difficult" or rare. They think if they have pums thumbs or what ever else happens to be "in" people will respect them more and that indeed is often the case. You fuss about "throw away frogs" in the dart frog community but in reality it is peer pressure and a desire for respect within that community that causes a lot of those problems. You want to change that? Get a lot of already respected members in the dart frog community to start singing the praises of "common" species like auratus and pretty soon everyone will be doing it. That is how it usually works.

When I see hybrids pop up why do they aways charge so much for them if its not about greed? Even the idiots that think we buy it when they post up oops my frogs bred on accident the frog all of a sudden gos to the highest bidder.

They don't, fantasy horned frogs are usually around a 30$ frog. If it was so easy to do that "idiots" could "accidentally" make a lot of money off hybrids you would see a lot more of it. I could just as well say new dart frog species or morphs coming into the hobby are "all about greed" since they tend to be considerably more expensive than any hybrid frog. I don't complain about greedy dart froggers and say that breeding rare darts is all about money though because I recognize it is just capitalism at work and if someone can sell a CB histo for a thousand dollars more power to them.

[boabab95]

There is a perception(and it tends to be accurate) that if other people in the dart frog community don't think what you have are "advanced" level dart frogs you won't get any respect and will be looked down on. Beginners want to fit in, be accepted and be respected so they are often influenced by what gets the hype rather than picking what they would pick if they were not influenced by what others thought was more "difficult" or rare. They think if they have pums thumbs or what ever else happens to be "in" people will respect them more and that indeed is often the case.

thats not completely true. I know a couple froggers (not naming names) who only own "beginner frogs" are are HIGHLY respected in the community.

[SethD]

thats not completely true. I know a couple froggers (not naming names) who only own "beginner frogs" are are HIGHLY respected in the comunity.

Oh I am sure there are exceptions, but it does tend to be true as a general rule. If you have only "beginner" species species you usually have to earn respect the hard way by gradually proving your knowledge and so forth. For someone who really wants respect but really isn't that terribly knowledgeable or experienced it is easier just to rattle off a list of what they have and use that to try to get respect.

[poison beauties]

yeah some frogs are worth more than others but the market decides that. And as far as a good beginners frog you are very much mistaken if you think pumilio and some thumb species are no harder tha tincs and auratus. I would like to see and average hobbyist take on a few reticulata and keep them thriving like tincs or auratus. Its not going to happen and I would know as I had the largest reticulata collection around until this past august.
Fantasy frogs were alot more than 30 bucks when they first appeared. I have plenty of memory on them and I can name off plenty of big names who sold them. If there is no real proof to the whole throw away frog than why are Auratus still the #1 imported dart? There are clearly enough of them to breed in order to sustain a supply that would stop the need for imports. Yet they get bought up and killed and the person moves on. Same with redeyes and others as well unfortunately.
Hybrids just add to the problems in our hobby. If we are going to advance as a hobby ot will only work through working to keep things as natural as possible and by tracking locales and lines in order to secure the breeding of the frogs for the future.

Michael

[SethD]

Hybrids just add to the problems in our hobby. If we are going to advance as a hobby ot will only work through working to keep things as natural as possible and by tracking locales and lines in order to secure the breeding of the frogs for the future.

You know, I personally have never produced hybrids or had much interest in them, however the more silliness I see on the topic the more I am inclined to do so just to freak out some poor paranoid souls who's millitancy I find uncalled for and illogical . How about some albino bufo woodhousii x leucistic bufo terrestris next year some time? How about another year after that I produce some with both mutant genes making things that much worse. A designer fertile hybrid. Bwwwaaahhhhh lol

[poison beauties]

You know, I personally have never produced hybrids or had much interest in them, however the more silliness I see on the topic the more I am inclined to do so just to freak out some poor paranoid souls who's millitancy I find uncalled for and illogical . How about some albino bufo woodhousii x leucistic bufo terrestris next year some time? How about another year after that I produce some with both mutant genes making things that much worse. A designer fertile hybrid. Bwwwaaahhhhh lol

You sure do argue for them to not have any interest in them. You have he right to do what you want with the toads but keep in mind that follows you through the hobby. Dont think for a second we dont talk about who produces hybrids. Many froogers and myself would go broke feeding froglets before handing them out to known hybrid producers. Once you cross those frogs your rep is stuck to just that. A hybridizer.
You know DB like you said. Cross the toads and see how nice of a welcome you get over there or anywhere my friends and I are.

Michael

[SethD]

You sure do argue for them to not have any interest in them. You have he right to do what you want with the toads but keep in mind that follows you through the hobby.

Yes, I know it. I argue for them not so much out of personal interest in them(never actually bought or had a hybrid frog) but because I think a lot of froggers get so stuck in group thought that they don't think for themselves. This limits innovation in anything not approved by the group. I have seen a lot of smart people that could have done a lot for the hobby be shot down by group thought. Instead they became pretty much like everybody else. This group mentality constricts the hobby a great deal. Everyone wants to be well thought of, and nobody want to contradict conventional wisdom even if conventional wisdom is based on emotion instead of fact. Now I don't think conventional wisdom should be thrown out just because it is conventional, but it should be examined to see if it really makes sense or not. If that sort of thinking bothers people, that is unfortunate, but the hobby advances only slowly without it.

Dont think for a second we dont talk about who produces hybrids. Many froogers and myself would go broke feeding froglets before handing them out to known hybrid producers. Once you cross those frogs your rep is stuck to just that. A hybridizer.

Frankly my rep among your dendroboard buddies is no great concern of mine. I only have a few friends there anyway and I doubt they would have a fit since they tend to be reasonable people. Probably 80% of my frogs are wild caught too since I enjoy working with species either uncommonly or never bred before in the hobby so you or your buddies not selling me frogs wouldn't bug me much either. If someone is such a snob that they would refuse to do business with or would look down on someone who produced hybrids to make a point and labeled them as such they are probably not the sort of person I would get along with anyway in the long term. I encourage people to experiment and try things for themselves, within reason of course.

You know DB like you said. Cross the toads and see how nice of a welcome you get over there or anywhere my friends and I are.

Lol, one thing I don't much care for is threats. I was half joking but I can probably be pushed into actually doing it. I vist dendroboard because there are some good guys there, but there are also a lot of people that act like lemmings unfortunately.

[poison beauties]

Yes, I know it. I argue for them not so much out of personal interest in them(never actually bought or had a hybrid frog) but because I think a lot of froggers get so stuck in group thought that they don't think for themselves. This limits innovation in anything not approved by the group. I have seen a lot of smart people that could have done a lot for the hobby be shot down by group thought. Instead they became pretty much like everybody else. This group mentality constricts the hobby a great deal. Everyone wants to be well thought of, and nobody want to contradict conventional wisdom even if conventional wisdom is based on emotion instead of fact. Now I don't think conventional wisdom should be thrown out just because it is conventional, but it should be examined to see if it really makes sense or not. If that sort of thinking bothers people, that is unfortunate, but the hobby advances only slowly without it.



Frankly my rep among your dendroboard buddies is no great concern of mine. I only have a few friends there anyway and I doubt they would have a fit since they tend to be reasonable people. Probably 80% of my frogs are wild caught too since I enjoy working with species either uncommonly or never bred before in the hobby so you or your buddies not selling me frogs wouldn't bug me much either. If someone is such a snob that they would refuse to do business with or would look down on someone who produced hybrids to make a point and labeled them as such they are probably not the sort of person I would get along with anyway in the long term. I encourage people to experiment and try things for themselves, within reason of course.



Lol, one thing I don't much care for is threats. I was half joking but I can probably be pushed into actually doing it. I vist dendroboard because there are some good guys there, but there are also a lot of people that act like lemmings unfortunately.

First off I threatened noone and secondly if you think there are that many people over there that would be ok with you producing or working with hybrids you really not in touch with the dart frog hobby or not near as in touch with it as I am. creating hybrids is breaking one of the golden rules as there is much more work going on with darts as far as locale, import and line data than any other frogs you work with. The darts are a beautifull natural representation of whats out there and many want it to stay that way.

And as for only wanting to work with rare or unbred captive frogs thats fine and many need to be bred here to decrease the demand for importing. I have worked with a few of the hardest to breed and keep thriving species and some were before these boards were even up and running. Im also collecting a few species from madagascar to take on that have never been successfully bred in captivity. That still does not take away from the hybrid issues,

Michael

[John911]

And as for only wanting to work with rare or unbred captive frogs thats fine and many need to be bred here to decrease the demand for importing. I have worked with a few of the hardest to breed and keep thriving species and some were before these boards were even up and running. Im also collecting a few species from madagascar to take on that have never been successfully bred in captivity. That still does not take away from the hybrid issues,

Michael

Good luck in your efforts Michael. What species are you going to attempt?

[SethD]

if you think there are that many people over there that would be ok with you producing or working with hybrids you really not in touch with the dart frog hobby or not near as in touch with it as I am. creating hybrids is breaking one of the golden rules as there is much more work going on with darts as far as locale, import and line data than any other frogs you work with. The darts are a beautifull natural representation of whats out there and many want it to stay that way.

For one thing I didn't say there are many people over on dendroboard that wouldn't have an issue with it, I am sure a lot of them would have a fit if they found out someone hybridized something even if it was a species they had no interest in and know little about anyway. What I said was that I only have a few friends over there to begin with and they tend to be reasonable enough people that they aren't going to panic at the mention of a hybrid frog that isn't going to hurt a thing. I think they are capable of looking at issues like this from a practical point of view without allowing emotion to run away with them. I also wasn't talking about hybrid darts. I understand the initial practical reasoning behind not mixing those before all the emotion that is now mixed into the issue arose. The initial main reason for not hybridizing darts is that there is a huge variety of species and morphs with new morphs not infrequently being discovered and coming into the hobby and therefore hybrids could be confusing. That still holds true today.

None of that is a problem though with horned frogs or other species with not nearly as much variety, where only a handful of people breed them, and where hybrids tend to be obvious and or infertile. I also don't see a real problem with hybrids in cases where natural wild hybrids occur with considerable frequency in areas where species ranges overlap, toads within the bufo americanus species group being a excellent and easily observed example of that. In situations like that hybrids are no big deal. All the toads in the americanus group, woodhousii, microscaphus, terrestris, fowleri, hemiophrys, americanus, and houstonensis are capable of producing fertile crosses with other species in that group(see some of the work frank blair of the university of texas did regarding hybridization in toads all the way back back in the 50's-70's) and do so when habitat overlaps in spite of differences in the males calls. The offspring integrate back into the population frequently producing completely natural and obvious hybrid zones with it now being possible to trace gene flow via genetic markers even farther into areas where a species looks "pure" and there is no longer any range overlap. If there is a market for hybrids in those categories for what ever reason then fine, it hurts nothing. It is no more a problem than producing color morphs of a "pure" species. I don't know if you have a problem with that too or not, some in the anti-hybrid-anything crowd do and some don't, but I don't see a problem with either.