Hello from Atlanta GA

[bshmerlie]

If you guys are so passionate about this why don't you get a couple of guys from both sides of the arguement, call up Jerry, and see if you guys can get on the show. All the name calling and trailer trash talk fits the Springer format. Then we can see you guys throw some punches at each other. That's how I see it. I agree with Seth, why don't you put your energy where you can really help the hobby. By the way, my red eyes took offence to the $20 frog comment.

[Tony]

I agree with Seth, why don't you put your energy where you can really help the hobby.

Educating people on why solid genetic management is a good idea IS helping the hobby. Preserving frogs in captivity that are vanishing in the wild is much more valuable than creating a bunch of hybrid frankenfrogs and losing the species they were made from.

[SethD]

Educating people on why solid genetic management is a good idea IS helping the hobby. Preserving frogs in captivity that are vanishing in the wild is much more valuable than creating a bunch of hybrid frankenfrogs and losing the species they were made from.

How many frogs in the hobby, pure or not would fit the criteria for introduction? Very few if any. How many frog species have been "lost" due to captive hybridization? None that I am aware of. Your objections tend to be more based on emotion than fact. That is fine, but just because your emotional about the issue it doesn't follow that everyone who doesn't see it exactly as you do is wrong. It is a hobby for enjoyment after all, different people enjoy different things. Further, some 'frankenfrogs" as you call them, occur naturally in the wild in many places, it isn't the end of the world. Wild hybrids are well documented in numerous north american toad species with overlapping ranges, and natural hybrids also occur in some toads of the melanophryniscus group whose ranges overlap and doubtless in many other species as well. If we had the ability to better document frogs in the wild I think you might be surprised how many species hybridize in the wild upon occasion when the conditions are right.

[Tony]

Feel free to point out where I said anything about reintroduction. As far as natural hybrids (aka intergrades) go, I have no ethical issue with them because they are a natural occurrence unlike fantasy frogs or captive dart hybrids.

[boabab95]

I dont mind wild hybrids either, but like tony said, when frogs that dont cross paths in nature, are mixed, then I don't want them, i'd rather have natural than "same environment" hybrids(i.e. saying because they are both from the rainforest, they can be mixed.)

[bshmerlie]

Tony weren't you the one who purchased the imported red eyes with white eyes just a month ago? You can't tell me you didn't buy them simply because they looked cool and different. And when you breed them you'll be charging more for the ones that have the white eyes. Just because a hobbiest didn't make those white eyes doesn't make it different. You'll still be breeding for a variation of the normal Red Eye. And didn't we just say that the original colors were best. Also, if we want to get into another ethical arguement. Why would you find it ethical to purchase wild caught red eyes when they are so abundantly available as captive bred? Aren't you encouraging the frog trafficers to keep taking frogs from the wild no matter how many die before they are ever sold to the public?

[Tony]

Tony weren't you the one who purchased the imported red eyes with white eyes just a month ago? You can't tell me you didn't buy them simply because they looked cool and different.

That is precisely why, it was a cool and different NATURAL variation.

And when you breed them you'll be charging more for the ones that have the white eyes. Just because a hobbiest didn't make those white eyes doesn't make it different. You'll still be breeding for a variation of the normal Red Eye. And didn't we just say that the original colors were best.

It is very different, being a natural occurrence and not a forced pairing like if I were to breed him to an A. annae or A. moreletii.

Also, if we want to get into another ethical arguement. Why would you find it ethical to purchase wild caught red eyes when they are so abundantly available as captive bred? Aren't you encouraging the frog trafficers to keep taking frogs from the wild no matter how many die before they are ever sold to the public?

I prefer to start with wild caught stock whenever possible to ensure a genetically diverse founding population instead of inbreeding frogger X's frogs who probably brought inbred frogs from frogger Y who bought inbred frogs from frogger Z and so on. Red eyes are a species of least concern on the IUCN redlist, imports are not hurting their wild populations.

[SethD]

Feel free to point out where I said anything about reintroduction.

If that is not your intent then on what basis do you say a "pure" species is more valuable than a hybrid? If there is not going to be a reintroduction the only purpose a captive frog serves is as a pet and therefore it doesn't make much sense to say that a "pure" pet frog is superior to hybrid pet frog. They are both just pets in that case, nothing more, and pets are a matter of personal taste. Certainly nothing to fuss at others about if their tastes differ.

[Tony]

If that is not your intent then on what basis do you say a "pure" species is more valuable than a hybrid?

Because that is their natural state, the awe-inspiring product of millions of years of evolution. Pure species are more beautiful and valuable than hybrids in the same way that a pristine forest is more beautiful and valuable than a shopping mall.

[SethD]

Because that is their natural state, the awe-inspiring product of millions of years of evolution. Pure species are more beautiful and valuable than hybrids in the same way that a pristine forest is more beautiful and valuable than a shopping mall.

So in short, it is a personal preference issue and because you personally like the forest you decree that it is better than a shopping mall. I think both have a place. If I need clothes I would rather get them at the mall than the forest, if I want to relax I would rather be in the forest than the mall. Since a pet is for personal enjoyment it doesn't make sense that because you like the forest metaphorically speaking that it is wrong for someone else to like the mall. That would be like me saying that because I personally don't like cheese no one else should eat it.

[poison beauties]

And Yes natural hybrids do occur but they are are still within a locale or region. And they are unlikely to be common or reenter the gene pool. If you have any knowledge on the natural hybrids you would know that they are not being kept in vivs and bred. The frogs also fair just as much chance if not more to breed with their own species in the wild which is not offered by these people in captivity. As you said the regions and territories do cross. yet many of the hybrids are left sterile and do not continue the gene pool which keeps things in balance,
When you throw a few frogs of different species in a viv its nothing more than the interest of creating a fad or profit that results in many more frogs that flood the market.

Michael

[poison beauties]

Like I said $20 dollar frogs whether pure or hybrid are continuously being looked at like a throwaway frog. Take Auratus for example. Have you noticed how in just the last year or so the average new member gos straight into thumbs and pums and all but says the cheaper beginner frogs are worthless. That is what I meant by throw away frogs. I think frogs are frogs and Im probably the least greedy frogger in the hobby if you want to know a bit about me. When I see hybrids pop up why do they aways charge so much for them if its not about greed? Even the idiots that think we buy it when they post up oops my frogs bred on accident the frog all of a sudden gos to the highest bidder.
I heard about the hybrid fight on here and while I know Tony from the boards he sure did not bring me here. I am my own person and Im more than capable of telling people what I think. If there is anything wrong with buying a twenty dollar frog I know nothing of it as Ive had everything from firebelly toads to R. Reticulata and have bred them all and given them away free to many. Not just froglets but actual groups of them. I did not join this hobby to make money and I do not buy on value or on the idea of what I can make back from breeding it.
No to the Jerry Springer appearence if anyone has an issue with me I will gladly meet then at any meet or show Im able to attend.
Its funny how all the complaining parties come out when a rant against hybrids pops up. I wonder what thats all about. Almost like someone told you about the post. Just like I heard so No need to blame others for my showing up. I wonder how long I will stay here. Ive honestly got all the contacts in this hobby I will ever need. I came over here to help where I can and it seems its needed.

Michael

[SethD]

Like I said $20 dollar frogs whether pure or hybrid are continuously being looked at like a throwaway frog. Take Auratus for example. Have you noticed how in just the last year or so the average new member gos straight into thumbs and pums and all but says the cheaper beginner frogs are worthless. That is what I meant by throw away frogs. I think frogs are frogs and Im probably the least greedy frogger in the hobby if you want to know a bit about me.

Auratus has been in the 20$ range for many, many years, sure sometimes you would see them for more than that but you could always get them in the 20$ range if you kept any eye out. Prices for those have not come down a great deal. As far as beginners going "straight into thumbs" I think that is fueled more by snobbery in the dart frog community than anything. There is a perception(and it tends to be accurate) that if other people in the dart frog community don't think what you have are "advanced" level dart frogs you won't get any respect and will be looked down on. Beginners want to fit in, be accepted and be respected so they are often influenced by what gets the hype rather than picking what they would pick if they were not influenced by what others thought was more "difficult" or rare. They think if they have pums thumbs or what ever else happens to be "in" people will respect them more and that indeed is often the case. You fuss about "throw away frogs" in the dart frog community but in reality it is peer pressure and a desire for respect within that community that causes a lot of those problems. You want to change that? Get a lot of already respected members in the dart frog community to start singing the praises of "common" species like auratus and pretty soon everyone will be doing it. That is how it usually works.

When I see hybrids pop up why do they aways charge so much for them if its not about greed? Even the idiots that think we buy it when they post up oops my frogs bred on accident the frog all of a sudden gos to the highest bidder.

They don't, fantasy horned frogs are usually around a 30$ frog. If it was so easy to do that "idiots" could "accidentally" make a lot of money off hybrids you would see a lot more of it. I could just as well say new dart frog species or morphs coming into the hobby are "all about greed" since they tend to be considerably more expensive than any hybrid frog. I don't complain about greedy dart froggers and say that breeding rare darts is all about money though because I recognize it is just capitalism at work and if someone can sell a CB histo for a thousand dollars more power to them.

[boabab95]

There is a perception(and it tends to be accurate) that if other people in the dart frog community don't think what you have are "advanced" level dart frogs you won't get any respect and will be looked down on. Beginners want to fit in, be accepted and be respected so they are often influenced by what gets the hype rather than picking what they would pick if they were not influenced by what others thought was more "difficult" or rare. They think if they have pums thumbs or what ever else happens to be "in" people will respect them more and that indeed is often the case.

thats not completely true. I know a couple froggers (not naming names) who only own "beginner frogs" are are HIGHLY respected in the community.

[SethD]

thats not completely true. I know a couple froggers (not naming names) who only own "beginner frogs" are are HIGHLY respected in the comunity.

Oh I am sure there are exceptions, but it does tend to be true as a general rule. If you have only "beginner" species species you usually have to earn respect the hard way by gradually proving your knowledge and so forth. For someone who really wants respect but really isn't that terribly knowledgeable or experienced it is easier just to rattle off a list of what they have and use that to try to get respect.

[poison beauties]

yeah some frogs are worth more than others but the market decides that. And as far as a good beginners frog you are very much mistaken if you think pumilio and some thumb species are no harder tha tincs and auratus. I would like to see and average hobbyist take on a few reticulata and keep them thriving like tincs or auratus. Its not going to happen and I would know as I had the largest reticulata collection around until this past august.
Fantasy frogs were alot more than 30 bucks when they first appeared. I have plenty of memory on them and I can name off plenty of big names who sold them. If there is no real proof to the whole throw away frog than why are Auratus still the #1 imported dart? There are clearly enough of them to breed in order to sustain a supply that would stop the need for imports. Yet they get bought up and killed and the person moves on. Same with redeyes and others as well unfortunately.
Hybrids just add to the problems in our hobby. If we are going to advance as a hobby ot will only work through working to keep things as natural as possible and by tracking locales and lines in order to secure the breeding of the frogs for the future.

Michael

[SethD]

Hybrids just add to the problems in our hobby. If we are going to advance as a hobby ot will only work through working to keep things as natural as possible and by tracking locales and lines in order to secure the breeding of the frogs for the future.

You know, I personally have never produced hybrids or had much interest in them, however the more silliness I see on the topic the more I am inclined to do so just to freak out some poor paranoid souls who's millitancy I find uncalled for and illogical . How about some albino bufo woodhousii x leucistic bufo terrestris next year some time? How about another year after that I produce some with both mutant genes making things that much worse. A designer fertile hybrid. Bwwwaaahhhhh lol

[poison beauties]

You know, I personally have never produced hybrids or had much interest in them, however the more silliness I see on the topic the more I am inclined to do so just to freak out some poor paranoid souls who's millitancy I find uncalled for and illogical . How about some albino bufo woodhousii x leucistic bufo terrestris next year some time? How about another year after that I produce some with both mutant genes making things that much worse. A designer fertile hybrid. Bwwwaaahhhhh lol

You sure do argue for them to not have any interest in them. You have he right to do what you want with the toads but keep in mind that follows you through the hobby. Dont think for a second we dont talk about who produces hybrids. Many froogers and myself would go broke feeding froglets before handing them out to known hybrid producers. Once you cross those frogs your rep is stuck to just that. A hybridizer.
You know DB like you said. Cross the toads and see how nice of a welcome you get over there or anywhere my friends and I are.

Michael

[SethD]

You sure do argue for them to not have any interest in them. You have he right to do what you want with the toads but keep in mind that follows you through the hobby.

Yes, I know it. I argue for them not so much out of personal interest in them(never actually bought or had a hybrid frog) but because I think a lot of froggers get so stuck in group thought that they don't think for themselves. This limits innovation in anything not approved by the group. I have seen a lot of smart people that could have done a lot for the hobby be shot down by group thought. Instead they became pretty much like everybody else. This group mentality constricts the hobby a great deal. Everyone wants to be well thought of, and nobody want to contradict conventional wisdom even if conventional wisdom is based on emotion instead of fact. Now I don't think conventional wisdom should be thrown out just because it is conventional, but it should be examined to see if it really makes sense or not. If that sort of thinking bothers people, that is unfortunate, but the hobby advances only slowly without it.

Dont think for a second we dont talk about who produces hybrids. Many froogers and myself would go broke feeding froglets before handing them out to known hybrid producers. Once you cross those frogs your rep is stuck to just that. A hybridizer.

Frankly my rep among your dendroboard buddies is no great concern of mine. I only have a few friends there anyway and I doubt they would have a fit since they tend to be reasonable people. Probably 80% of my frogs are wild caught too since I enjoy working with species either uncommonly or never bred before in the hobby so you or your buddies not selling me frogs wouldn't bug me much either. If someone is such a snob that they would refuse to do business with or would look down on someone who produced hybrids to make a point and labeled them as such they are probably not the sort of person I would get along with anyway in the long term. I encourage people to experiment and try things for themselves, within reason of course.

You know DB like you said. Cross the toads and see how nice of a welcome you get over there or anywhere my friends and I are.

Lol, one thing I don't much care for is threats. I was half joking but I can probably be pushed into actually doing it. I vist dendroboard because there are some good guys there, but there are also a lot of people that act like lemmings unfortunately.