Thanks Jeff, I was talking to Seth about this the other night and how I feel. That if they need hormones to spawn than you must not be giving them the right conditions to produce enough hormones on their own to want to breed. Though Seth did say that it's more of an insurance that they will produce than a necessity. That's interesting that you bred Koi Jeff. At my old house I used to keep koi in my outdoor pond, well wasn't all mine since it was my parents house. I forget the breed names but I remember my favorites were red on the sides, white on top, and 2 rows of large blue scales at the tippy top of the body.