Introducing Caatanga X Ornata

[SethD]

Ethics are ethics regardless of the species involved.

"Ethics" are not the same for everyone. You may take issue with species mixing, but not everyone automatically has a problem with it "just because".

C. joazeirensis is also an octaploid, which removes a major barrier to fertility in this cross.

Possibly, we will see. It will be interesting to see if they are fertile or not.

Phillipe de Vosjoli also advocates for hybridization among Rhacodactylus geckos, and probably any other abomination that seems commercially lucrative. As far as I am concerned anyone who wastes a new species like this on hybrid garbage is unethical, as is his apparent partner who uses hormone treatments to flood the market with weak froglets instead of putting in the time to aestivate the frogs and breed them naturally.

Your trashing people I doubt you know and making statements that are not well founded too. Please leave that over in the dart frog hobby if you can. The rest of us don't need that type of attitude in our part of the hobby. Breeding adult horned frogs with hormones does not automatically produce weak froglets. It has more to do with the diet of the parents and the conditions the tadpoles are raised in. I personally don't use hormones in frog breeding but I don't have a visceral response to those that do or claim that it causes problems that it doesn't.

You know this is why on the one hand I appreciate it when dart frog hobbyists show interest in something else because I would like to see the "other frogs" area of the hobby expand but I also don't like it because they all seem to think and act alike in a very closed minded fashion with little tolerance for anyone that doesn't do exactly what they think they "should" in the amphibian hobby. If someone doesn't march to the drummer of the "borg"(lol) he is automatically "unethical" and the enemy. That isn't the hobby I enjoy so much and I would not like to see the rest of the amphibian hobby follow in the footsteps of dart frog hobbyists. Certain elements in the dart frog hobby tend to be pretty snobbish and as a whole they demand far to much conformity to group thought for my taste. Of course there are many good guys involved too. However if I can exert any little bit of influence to help the rest of the hobby from going down the same general path the dart frog hobby has gone down I will do so. Your free to disagree and as a matter of fact I expect you to do so.

[John]

Folks, it's apparent this is a heated argument and there are passionate views on both sides. I would like it to stay civil please. I would rather not get drawn into the details of this conversation but I can see two somewhat simplistic views of the issue.

For what it's worth, I think we should not overly serenade Phillipe de Vosjoli, and we should not be incredibly anti-hybriziation. Phillipe had his own motivations for doing what he did. I do think the point has been rightly made that hybridization between horned frogs is a very inconsequential issue in the hobby due to the lack of fertility in hybrids, and the access people have to species that could produce potentially viable hybrids _and_ could come into the possession of someone capable of breeding them.

Ethically I am more of a "leave it the way nature intended it" kind of guy but given the lack of consequences for the species themselves (I speak in the case of horned frogs only), I see little harm, and likewise, I see little or no benefit to it.

A note on hormone breeding, I don't see the relevance to the conversation, but if you want to open up another thread to talk about that, I would be happy to give you my experienced opinion on the topic. Suffice it to say that I think the issue as stated already in the thread is being treated in a broad, sweeping fashion which would require qualification to not be faulty.

Lastly, let me remind you to please be civil to each other and keep things friendly - we don't have to agree.

[EpicFrogMan]

I know you guys have your opinions, but it amazes me to think you know more than leaders of the Horned Frog movement who actually talk to Herpetologists,Captive Breed,Write books. Your opinions mean nothing compared to people who are actually doing something.

[Tony]

I know you guys have your opinions, but it amazes me to think you know more than leaders of the Horned Frog movement who actually talk to Herpetologists,Captive Breed,Write books. Your opinions mean nothing compared to people who are actually doing something.

I am breeding, and I work with species far more valuable to conservation efforts than ridiculous hybrids.

[bshmerlie]

I am breeding, and I work with species far more valuable to conservation efforts than ridiculous hybrids.

Tony what you have just said is absolutely true and that is also why you should be above the name calling in this argument.

[Kevin1]

Well this is the horned frog section. You already called our whole community a joke and bashed herpetologist Philippe Vosjoli who knows more about Reptiles and Amphibians than you will ever wish to know. So why dont you get the fukk out already.

I believe Philippe is a herpetoculturist not a herpetologist, Though this I'm not fully sure of.

[bshmerlie]

I believe Philippe is a herpetoculturist not a herpetologist, Though this I'm not fully sure of.

Thank you Kevin....any attempt to distract the children is welcome.

[wesleybrouwer]

What a pitty to see it is the same thing around the globe,
why do you keep frogs?

What i noticed about people keeping the bigger frogs like horned frogs,
a lot of them tend to have the same problems a lot of snake guys have.
As if it matters wether you're frog can eat his.
You're frog isn't top of the food chain as well, but why bother?

Don't mind if it is a tree frog, toad or dart frog.
You should keep you're frogs because you love them.
Not because of the economics or if it can eat someone elses pet.

If you really want a hybrid, be my guest, hopefully there are enough people with the same respect for nature as we with those tiny ridiculous poison darts have.
While we're at it, try give him a nibble of one of those, see how well that goes.

I think people like you, immediately bashing into someone and try to make a fool out of them, create the way tony generalize those horned frog keepers.

[tylototriton]

This post has gotten massively out of hand. It is no longer contributing anything in the way of knowledge.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, my favorite thing about John Clare's websites is that they are places where knowledge sharing and occasionally debate are welcome in a friendly atmosphere.

I'll reserve my opinions on the topics being discussed as quite enough has been said already. We should let bygones be bygones and agree to part ways on this thread.

Truthfully, there is no point in continuing the current conversation because it is neither accomplishing nor revealing anything.


Best,
Alex

[John]

Earlier today, I asked you all to be civil, and rather politely I might add. Then the inappropriate language came out and a few people violated our terms of service. This has forced me to close the thread, delete many messages, and hand out some infractions. If you can't have a constructive conversation (or constructive debate), then please don't post here. It's rather saddening when obviously intelligent and experienced people can't talk about a topic without degenerating into mud slinging and name calling. You are all better than that.

[Tony]

A note on hormone breeding, I don't see the relevance to the conversation, but if you want to open up another thread to talk about that, I would be happy to give you my experienced opinion on the topic. Suffice it to say that I think the issue as stated already in the thread is being treated in a broad, sweeping fashion which would require qualification to not be faulty.

What I intended with that point is to illustrate the greed that these two breeders have shown. Creating hybrids with a rare species and flooding the markets with weak cranwelli that show a high mortality rate over their first few months are both abhorrent acts. There is nothing at all wrong with making a living breeding animals, but these two have crossed the line into pure greed.