Introducing Caatanga X Ornata

[SethD]

How did someone get legal C. joazeirensis and why are they being wasted on hybrid projects?

I imagine they had extra males. If you have extra males and can produce a sellable frog why not? As far as "someone" at this time as far as I am aware the newly available horned frog species are only coming from Philippe de Vosjoli and from Kim at the "frog ranch". Their breeding stock reportedly came in as CB animals legally exported from brazil. I tend to believe that and I suspect they have all the documentation for it as both of them have to much at stake to be caught with smuggled frogs.

[Tony]

If you have extra males and can produce a sellable frog why not?

For the same reason I don't pair up my "extra" A. annae with A. callidryas or produce designer hybrid dart frogs? Because I have a little more integrity than to produce something that could easily contaminate and permanently ruin our captive populations.

As far as "someone" at this time as far as I am aware the newly available horned frog species are only coming from Philippe de Vosjoli and from Kim at the "frog ranch". Their stock reportedly came from CB animals legally exported from brazil. I tend to believe that and I suspect they have all the documentation for it as both of them have to much at stake to be caught with smuggled frogs.

Let's hope that is true and that Brazil will continue to relax their export restrictions. I also hope future exports go to more ethical breeders.

[EpicFrogMan]

Do you really think you know more than the people who are the leaders of the horned frog hobby?

[Tony]

Do you really think you know more than the people who are the leaders of the horned frog hobby?

I can almost guarantee you I know more about population genetics and captive management. If they do know they are clearly choosing to ignore that knowledge in favor of greed.

[SethD]

For the same reason I don't pair up my "extra" A. annae with A. callidryas or produce designer hybrid dart frogs? Because I have a little more integrity than to produce something that could easily contaminate and permanently ruin our captive populations.

Please... lol Don't drag "dart frog ethics" into other areas of the amphibian hobby. Dart frogs are a somewhat unique case in that there are many morphs of the same species in many cases and it could be difficult to tell if a hybrid is a hybrid or a new morph. That was the initial reasoning behind the dart frog hobby frowning on hybrids though it has moved beyond that practical reasoning now into something a bit more visceral I think.

In the case of Horned frogs dart frog reasoning does not really apply for the following reasons.

A: To date crosses of horned frog species have been infertile(or possibly a low level of fertility in some specimens though this has not been proven) due to different chromosome counts. For example Ornata is octoploid while cranwelli is not.

B: There is only a relatively small number of regular horned frog breeders. It is likely to stay that way. They all tend to be knowledgeable. They are unlikely to "accidentally" contaminate "pure" stock. This isn't the dart frog world where there are hundreds and hundreds of different breeders at all different levels of knowledge and experience.

Let's hope that is true and that Brazil will continue to relax their export restrictions.

I hope some more legal stuff comes out of brazil too.

I also hope future exports go to more ethical breeders.

Without those two breeders, and especially Philippe de Vosjoli, horned frogs most likely would not be available as CB in the hobby period. I understand a lot of comparatively newer people in the hobby might not know things like that but before you start calling out people as "unethical breeders" understand that dart frogs are not the beginning nor the end of the amphibian hobby and attitudes towards hybrids are not always the same as they are in the dart frog community for some of the reasons I mentioned. If you don't like them fine, nobody is going to make you buy them, but just because you don't like them doesn't mean someone that produces them is automatically an unethical breeder.

[Tony]

Please... lol Don't drag "dart frog ethics" into other areas of the amphibian hobby.

Ethics are ethics regardless of the species involved.

In the case of Horned frogs dart frog reasoning does not really apply for the following reasons.

A: To date crosses of horned frog species have been infertile(or possibly a low level of fertility in some specimens though this has not been proven) due to different chromosome counts. For example Ornata is octoploid while cranwelli is not.

C. joazeirensis is also an octaploid, which removes a major barrier to fertility in this cross.

Without those two breeders, and especially Philippe de Vosjoli, horned frogs most likely would not be available as CB in the hobby period. I understand a lot of comparatively newer people in the hobby might not know things like that but before you start calling out people as "unethical breeders" understand that dart frogs are not the beginning nor the end of the amphibian hobby and attitudes towards hybrids are not always the same as they are in the dart frog community for some of the reasons I mentioned. If you don't like them fine, nobody is going to make you buy them, but just because you don't like them doesn't mean someone that produces them is automatically an unethical breeder.

Phillipe de Vosjoli also advocates for hybridization among Rhacodactylus geckos, and probably any other abomination that seems commercially lucrative. As far as I am concerned anyone who wastes a new species like this on hybrid garbage is unethical, as is his apparent partner who uses hormone treatments to flood the market with weak froglets instead of putting in the time to aestivate the frogs and breed them naturally.

[Kevin1]

Phillipe de Vosjoli also advocates for hybridization among Rhacodactylus geckos, and probably any other abomination that seems commercially lucrative.

If your referring to leachies, It's locality and subspecies crossing he advocates.
From what I understand the Leachianus henkeli subspecies status has been dropped and therefore not really advocating hybridization at all. The only reason he does advocate crossing localities is because of the limited numbers of specimens exported. Claiming to be knowledgeable on population genetics, I would think you would understand the reasoning behind it.
In your post earlier you said something about using hormone treatments to flood the market with weak froglets. You should know when they first bred joazeirensis they did it without hormones. Please don't take any offense to this Tony.

[Kevin1]

I'd also like to inform the forum, in case you guys didn't hear, that Phillipe and Robert's team have the caatinga horned frog C. joazeirensis. While Kim has true C. Auritas and has had them for a long time. Never offered any for sale due to them growing to a smaller size than expected. Also that Phillipe and Robert have teamed up to try and figure out the "situation" with these new frog species. I heard this straight from the herpetocultural man himself(and his team). I haven't heard anything new on the subject in awhile. I hope that helps clear up any confusion. Some of you that frequent other frog forums might already be aware of this.

[Tony]

If your referring to leachies, It's locality and subspecies crossing he advocates.

He just published an article in the Reptiles annual advocating mixed Rhac vivs along with crossing ciliatus x chahouha and ciliatus x sarasinorum.

From what I understand the Leachianus henkeli subspecies status has been dropped and therefore not really advocating hybridization at all. The only reason he does advocate crossing localities is because of the limited numbers of specimens exported.

Crossing localities is hybridization if they are reproductively isolated populations in nature.

Claiming to be knowledgeable on population genetics, I would think you would understand the reasoning behind it.

A founding population of 20 individuals will capture about 97.5% of a populations genetic diversity and can be managed without fresh blood for quite some time.

In your post earlier you said something about using hormone treatments to flood the market with weak froglets. You should know when they first bred joazeirensis they did it without hormones. Please don't take any offense to this Tony.

I was not aware that C. joazeirensis was here until this thread, but the problems with hormone-bred cranwelli are no secret.

[SethD]

Ethics are ethics regardless of the species involved.

"Ethics" are not the same for everyone. You may take issue with species mixing, but not everyone automatically has a problem with it "just because".

C. joazeirensis is also an octaploid, which removes a major barrier to fertility in this cross.

Possibly, we will see. It will be interesting to see if they are fertile or not.

Phillipe de Vosjoli also advocates for hybridization among Rhacodactylus geckos, and probably any other abomination that seems commercially lucrative. As far as I am concerned anyone who wastes a new species like this on hybrid garbage is unethical, as is his apparent partner who uses hormone treatments to flood the market with weak froglets instead of putting in the time to aestivate the frogs and breed them naturally.

Your trashing people I doubt you know and making statements that are not well founded too. Please leave that over in the dart frog hobby if you can. The rest of us don't need that type of attitude in our part of the hobby. Breeding adult horned frogs with hormones does not automatically produce weak froglets. It has more to do with the diet of the parents and the conditions the tadpoles are raised in. I personally don't use hormones in frog breeding but I don't have a visceral response to those that do or claim that it causes problems that it doesn't.

You know this is why on the one hand I appreciate it when dart frog hobbyists show interest in something else because I would like to see the "other frogs" area of the hobby expand but I also don't like it because they all seem to think and act alike in a very closed minded fashion with little tolerance for anyone that doesn't do exactly what they think they "should" in the amphibian hobby. If someone doesn't march to the drummer of the "borg"(lol) he is automatically "unethical" and the enemy. That isn't the hobby I enjoy so much and I would not like to see the rest of the amphibian hobby follow in the footsteps of dart frog hobbyists. Certain elements in the dart frog hobby tend to be pretty snobbish and as a whole they demand far to much conformity to group thought for my taste. Of course there are many good guys involved too. However if I can exert any little bit of influence to help the rest of the hobby from going down the same general path the dart frog hobby has gone down I will do so. Your free to disagree and as a matter of fact I expect you to do so.

[John]

Folks, it's apparent this is a heated argument and there are passionate views on both sides. I would like it to stay civil please. I would rather not get drawn into the details of this conversation but I can see two somewhat simplistic views of the issue.

For what it's worth, I think we should not overly serenade Phillipe de Vosjoli, and we should not be incredibly anti-hybriziation. Phillipe had his own motivations for doing what he did. I do think the point has been rightly made that hybridization between horned frogs is a very inconsequential issue in the hobby due to the lack of fertility in hybrids, and the access people have to species that could produce potentially viable hybrids _and_ could come into the possession of someone capable of breeding them.

Ethically I am more of a "leave it the way nature intended it" kind of guy but given the lack of consequences for the species themselves (I speak in the case of horned frogs only), I see little harm, and likewise, I see little or no benefit to it.

A note on hormone breeding, I don't see the relevance to the conversation, but if you want to open up another thread to talk about that, I would be happy to give you my experienced opinion on the topic. Suffice it to say that I think the issue as stated already in the thread is being treated in a broad, sweeping fashion which would require qualification to not be faulty.

Lastly, let me remind you to please be civil to each other and keep things friendly - we don't have to agree.

[EpicFrogMan]

I know you guys have your opinions, but it amazes me to think you know more than leaders of the Horned Frog movement who actually talk to Herpetologists,Captive Breed,Write books. Your opinions mean nothing compared to people who are actually doing something.

[Tony]

A note on hormone breeding, I don't see the relevance to the conversation, but if you want to open up another thread to talk about that, I would be happy to give you my experienced opinion on the topic. Suffice it to say that I think the issue as stated already in the thread is being treated in a broad, sweeping fashion which would require qualification to not be faulty.

What I intended with that point is to illustrate the greed that these two breeders have shown. Creating hybrids with a rare species and flooding the markets with weak cranwelli that show a high mortality rate over their first few months are both abhorrent acts. There is nothing at all wrong with making a living breeding animals, but these two have crossed the line into pure greed.