Suicidal White's TreeF.?

[Crystal6]

Just to clarify..are you saying not to use rainwater? And to whom was the question intented for? I wasn't sure about the rain water and am curious.
I myself use my tap water, but it's from a well from springs and it's very clean around here, little or no polution and full of natural minerals. There are very strict laws in the area and we are not allowed to use anything with gas or oil on the lake at all and toxic spills of any kind are taken very seriously.

Amazing. The pollution where I live is pretty bad so I don't use rain water. Back when I had Woodfrogs I used to use the lake water though. (Because I wasn't sure which minerals/chemicals they did/didn't need.)

I used spring water, OR I boil regular water, OR I treat it with a solution to rid of it chlorine. Lately it's just been spring water but I've used all of those methods with little problem.

[charlamanda]

QUOTE=SethD;37220]Captive bred or captive raised froglets rarely are seriously harmed by parasites. For one thing captive conditions are not usually condusive to developing a very heavy infestation, and for another thing frogs can usually handle even heavy infestations unless they become ill or heavily stressed out due to something else. There tends to be two major reasons why CB froglets die before adulthood. One, improper nutrition, and two contamination from housing them with sick WC frogs. Occasionally a frog will just morph weak and never do well or will develop some other type of problem but from what I have seen the majority of CB froglets that are lost were lost due to one of those two main reasons I mentioned.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Seth, any and all info in greatly appreciated.
So I understand, the parasites are usually not the "primary" problem, but are problematic only with a secondary infection (like Chytrid or other bacterial infections). This secondary infection can create the stress that causes the intestinal parasitic "bloom" and or the stress from changing conditions (buying a new frog), which can also cause the secondary inf. (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) to become evident, activate or worsen significantly. So basically it's the secondary infection (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) that will kill the frog, but the intestinal parasites can weaken the already ill frog and complicate it's treatment of the infection? I would also assume that you would need to rid the frog of the intestinal parasite before effectively treating the frog for the Chytrid, etc, especially if the treatment is given orally? If you give the treatment orally the worms will eat or absorb the medication so the frog will be unable to receive an effective dose to rid it of the infection..or am I stretching here? I am also assuming that the treatment for the intestinal parasites are a mild poison?, and giving the sick frog a treatment to rid it of the parasites, while treating it for another infection maybe lethal in itself?.......It's sounding very confusing and a really bad situation for the frog!!!! The CB frogs usually get these secondary infections from cross contamination from other CB frogs or untreated WC frogs. Have I got this right? BTW all my frogs are wild caught I took in a few weeks after they morphed and left my pool. I have not gotten them dewormed, but all are eating and seem healthy. Do you have any suggestions or thoughts whether I should have them dewormed or any other prophylaxis?

(another one of my pointless stories, but interesting)
This is very similar with people. We can live with parasites for...well our entire lives never having any serious problems (as long as they remain in the intestines), but if the person has say a autoimmune disease or gets a bad and long term virus, like MRSA, the worms will grow and reproduce (I've seen this in a man who came from India. He had every inch of his lg and sm intestine packed with worms I saw on a Upper & lower gi aka barium enema. Under fluoroscopy (continuous X-rays in real time) they were moving and wiggling around...YUCK!!!). He was just extremely thin and malnourished, but otherwise fine.
This may be invaluable info when and if it happens to my frogs, so I'd really like to understand it all now. Thanks again Seth for letting me pick your brain.

[charlamanda]

Amazing. The pollution where I live is pretty bad so I don't use rain water. Back when I had Woodfrogs I used to use the lake water though. (Because I wasn't sure which minerals/chemicals they did/didn't need.)

I used spring water, OR I boil regular water, OR I treat it with a solution to rid of it chlorine. Lately it's just been spring water but I've used all of those methods with little problem.

WOW I am surprised you have that much polution since you mentioned you are in the middle of nowhere, that's aweful and sorry about that! I think your water choices are fine, I just don't understand what happened to your poor frogs. Sadly without a necropsy you may never know what happened, but I hope if you decide to get any more frogs they do better than these.
Maybe you can try another breed that is hardier, like Gray Tree Frogs. I just love mine and from what I understand they are very easy and hardy tree frogs, not to mention very entertaining and wonderful tame pets. I have 13 now and a entire pool full of tadpoles, I'd love to send them, but I am still waiting to hear from the Pa Fish and Game Comission on that issue. If you wre closer I'd just drive them over.
Are you in Canada or US? I will check with the Pa F & G Comission about crossing states and country borders too.
I know that there are several websites that are linked and or reccomended maybe you can try ordering a new frog/frogs from there. Best of luck.

[Crystal6]

WOW I am surprised you have that much polution since you mentioned you are in the middle of nowhere, that's aweful and sorry about that! I think your water choices are fine, I just don't understand what happened to your poor frogs. Sadly without a necropsy you may never know what happened, but I hope if you decide to get any more frogs they do better than these.
Maybe you can try another breed that is hardier, like Gray Tree Frogs. I just love mine and from what I understand they are very easy and hardy tree frogs, not to mention very entertaining and wonderful tame pets. I have 13 now and a entire pool full of tadpoles, I'd love to send them, but I am still waiting to hear from the Pa Fish and Game Comission on that issue. If you wre closer I'd just drive them over.
Are you in Canada or US? I will check with the Pa F & G Comission about crossing states and country borders too.
I know that there are several websites that are linked and or reccomended maybe you can try ordering a new frog/frogs from there. Best of luck.

I'm near Canada but not in it. Anyway, I DO have more White's Treefrogs, they're just Indonesian. (Though... having a few common living frogs it better then rare dead ones so... what am I complaining about?)

As for the polution, I'm not sure about the rain water but I know our pond has it pretty badly. I used to find leopard tree frogs and wood frogs there all the time. Now they have all disappeared. (I haven't been able to find eggs there in the last few years either. I had to find the spring peeper ones in a ditch instead. )

[wesleybrouwer]

Just to clarify..are you saying not to use rainwater? And to whom was the question intented for? I wasn't sure about the rain water and am curious.
I myself use my tap water, but it's from a well from springs and it's very clean around here, little or no polution and full of natural minerals. There are very strict laws in the area and we are not allowed to use anything with gas or oil on the lake at all and toxic spills of any kind are taken very seriously.

Hi, the question was intended for Crystal.
Rainwater is mostly fine, when you filter out the pieces of leaves and stuff that regularly comes with it.
Sometimes in dense areas i would be carefull using it after a period of dright,
i believe it also takes all kind of floating pieces with it that are out in the air,
like exhausting gasses.

I was talking about purified water.
Like in osmose or distilled water.
This will cause a reverse osmose effect between water inside you're frog and the water he sits in.
I posted it somewhere on a topic that is about the differences in water.

[wesleybrouwer]

@Charlamandra

What seth means is that every frog have some parasites and worms,
some of them are actually quit good for them,
just as we have good and bad bacterias.

WC frogs ALWAYS are infested with them while CB will have far less.
By putting a WC with a CB you give the oppurtunity to pass on some of the stuff from nature into your "clean"environment.

Another big problem can be between 2 WC species from a different place.
A frog from America may be resistant to types of diseases since evolutionary they geneticaly build up resistance.
Adding for example an Asian frog to it,
you bring in stuff they are not resistant to since it is unknown for their biology,
same goes with the Asian frog that will be prone to catch a typical American disease.

Besides those problems,
any stress will put down the defence mechanism of you're frog,
the parasites and/or worms will boom since the body isn't able to fight it.
Number one cause will be stress, this will weaken any frog significantly.
Adding another frog and even handling them, especially WC, will stress them out and weaken them a lot.
Therefore the parasite or whatever will be able to take control and make you;re frog sick
wich worsens the stress and make it sicker, most people will then get the frog extra attention by picking it up and stressing it even more.

In the end, dead is the result of it.

Best way to deal is,
let the frog be and try to collect feces for examination,
If it soes not poo you can get him/here out of the tank by using gloves
and put it in a little bowl of luke water.
After 5-10 minutes get it out and put the frog in a small enclosure with some kitchen towel or little moist cottonwool.
Most of the time the frog will get something out for you

Then let it examin by microscope as soon as possible to check what is wrong with the frog.
By doing this in time, the vet can often tell you what is wrong and give you a treatment.
Most chance that the frog will make it that way.

Sidenote to that is, i think a frog shoul never be sold sick already.
Before buying it, check for any signs of a disease if possible.
A sick frog can be recognized quit well.
When you got doubts, just don't buy it out of compassion.
A waste of money and the frog will die anyways.

[SethD]

Thanks Seth, any and all info in greatly appreciated.
So I understand, the parasites are usually not the "primary" problem, but are problematic only with a secondary infection (like Chytrid or other bacterial infections). This secondary infection can create the stress that causes the intestinal parasitic "bloom" and or the stress from changing conditions (buying a new frog), which can also cause the secondary inf. (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) to become evident, activate or worsen significantly. So basically it's the secondary infection (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) that will kill the frog, but the intestinal parasites can weaken the already ill frog and complicate it's treatment of the infection? I would also assume that you would need to rid the frog of the intestinal parasite before effectively treating the frog for the Chytrid, etc, especially if the treatment is given orally? If you give the treatment orally the worms will eat or absorb the medication so the frog will be unable to receive an effective dose to rid it of the infection..or am I stretching here? I am also assuming that the treatment for the intestinal parasites are a mild poison?, and giving the sick frog a treatment to rid it of the parasites, while treating it for another infection maybe lethal in itself?.......It's sounding very confusing and a really bad situation for the frog!!!! The CB frogs usually get these secondary infections from cross contamination from other CB frogs or untreated WC frogs. Have I got this right? BTW all my frogs are wild caught I took in a few weeks after they morphed and left my pool. I have not gotten them dewormed, but all are eating and seem healthy. Do you have any suggestions or thoughts whether I should have them dewormed or any other prophylaxis?

Yes, you pretty much got it. Much of the time when you see sick captive bred frogs it is because they were contaminated by mixing them, or their cages and bedding with sick wild caught frogs. Pet stores do this quite a bit as do some wholesalers. Sickness in CB frogs is usually caused either by contamination from already sick frogs, poor nutrition, or by keeping them in unsanitary conditions long enough that they get sick from that. As far as deworming I personally don't usually do it for any frog, no matter if it is CB or WC. The reason is if the frog is in good enough shape to handle worming without it causing any issues in most cases it can also handle the parasites. I prefer to let them gradually thin out as they eventually will in captive conditions without a continuous source of reinfection. On the other hand if a frog is in bad shape deworming it can shock its system to the point it can contribute to the death of the frog. If a frog appears weak or malnourished it is much better not to worm it in my opinion, at least until it has a chance to put on some weight and regain some health. About the only exception I make is when a frog has a good appetite but doesn't seem to gain much weight and has a heavy parasite load. In those cases worming is beneficial most of the time.

[charlamanda]

I'm near Canada but not in it. Anyway, I DO have more White's Treefrogs, they're just Indonesian. (Though... having a few common living frogs it better then rare dead ones so... what am I complaining about?)
***Good point, but it's ok to complain, a loss is a loss reguardless if you have other pets or not!!
As for the polution, I'm not sure about the rain water but I know our pond has it pretty badly. I used to find leopard tree frogs and wood frogs there all the time. Now they have all disappeared. (I haven't been able to find eggs there in the last few years either. I had to find the spring peeper ones in a ditch instead. )

***From what I have read frogs are especially sensitive to pollution. When studies are done of waterways for pollution they check for frogs. If there are many deformaties in the froglets, since they will show signs of this before other native species of the particular pond/lake/river etc., they can usually tell just from that there is some pollution.
This may explain why there are many species of frogs disappearing from your area. Sad and makes me angry!!

[charlamanda]

Hi, the question was intended for Crystal.
Rainwater is mostly fine, when you filter out the pieces of leaves and stuff that regularly comes with it.
Sometimes in dense areas i would be carefull using it after a period of dright,
i believe it also takes all kind of floating pieces with it that are out in the air,
like exhausting gasses.

I was talking about purified water.
Like in osmose or distilled water.
This will cause a reverse osmose effect between water inside you're frog and the water he sits in.
I posted it somewhere on a topic that is about the differences in water.

Thanks for clarifying. I would use a bucket that was cleaned, covered with a mess netting and not under any trees or gutter run off from the house.

[charlamanda]

What seth means is that every frog have some parasites and worms,
some of them are actually quit good for them,
just as we have good and bad bacterias.
***Very interesting, I didn't realize that frogs normally have parasites that are helpful.

WC frogs ALWAYS are infested with them while CB will have far less.
By putting a WC with a CB you give the oppurtunity to pass on some of the stuff from nature into your "clean"environment.
***This makes a lot on sense, since CB's aren't subjected to the same enviroments the WC are and therefore don't have the natural resistance.

Another big problem can be between 2 WC species from a different place.
A frog from America may be resistant to types of diseases since evolutionary they geneticaly build up resistance.
Adding for example an Asian frog to it,
you bring in stuff they are not resistant to since it is unknown for their biology,
same goes with the Asian frog that will be prone to catch a typical American disease.
****Kind of like the native americans and small pox and Mexican's, and other countries like India, were drinking the for us is.....a pooping experience!LOL Good ole Montezuma's revenge!LOL

[charlamanda]

Yes, you pretty much got it. Much of the time when you see sick captive bred frogs it is because they were contaminated by mixing them, or their cages and bedding with sick wild caught frogs. Pet stores do this quite a bit as do some wholesalers. Sickness in CB frogs is usually caused either by contamination from already sick frogs, poor nutrition, or by keeping them in unsanitary conditions long enough that they get sick from that. As far as deworming I personally don't usually do it for any frog, no matter if it is CB or WC. The reason is if the frog is in good enough shape to handle worming without it causing any issues in most cases it can also handle the parasites. I prefer to let them gradually thin out as they eventually will in captive conditions without a continuous source of reinfection. On the other hand if a frog is in bad shape deworming it can shock its system to the point it can contribute to the death of the frog. If a frog appears weak or malnourished it is much better not to worm it in my opinion, at least until it has a chance to put on some weight and regain some health. About the only exception I make is when a frog has a good appetite but doesn't seem to gain much weight and has a heavy parasite load. In those cases worming is beneficial most of the time.

*****Makes perfect sense. Thanks Seth. So instead of subjecting my little guys I wait and watch them. So far all are eating very well and growing and gaining weight. When I took them in most were about 1/2"- almost an inch and they have all doubled, tripled or quadrupled in size. I do have an exception. One frog, Baby, I took in because he/she was so emaciated. Baby has definitely grown and put on some weight, were he/she looks healthy, but obviously not as much as or as fast as the rest. However, he/she was only eating ff for most of the time because of his/her size. In the last few weeks Baby has started eating worms and crickets, but so far hasn't yet starting a significant growth spurt. I wait a bit longer to see if Baby grows, if not it may be a problem with parasites. Then what.. Do I treat for parasites, since he/she is still looking healthy just not growing much? Baby is still a very small froglet, about 1/2 " even though his/her counterparts of the same age are almost 2" long now.

[charlamanda]

*****Makes perfect sense. Thanks Seth. So instead of subjecting my little guys I wait and watch them. So far all are eating very well and growing and gaining weight. When I took them in most were about 1/2"- almost an inch and they have all doubled, tripled or quadrupled in size. I do have an exception. One frog, Baby, I took in because he/she was so emaciated. Baby has definitely grown and put on some weight, were he/she looks healthy, but obviously not as much as or as fast as the rest. However, he/she was only eating ff for most of the time because of his/her size. In the last few weeks Baby has started eating worms and crickets, but so far hasn't yet starting a significant growth spurt. I wait a bit longer to see if Baby grows, if not it may be a problem with parasites. Then what.. Do I treat for parasites, since he/she is still looking healthy just not growing much? Baby is still a very small froglet, about 1/2 " even though his/her counterparts of the same age are almost 2" long now.

Here is a pic of Baby when I took him/her in and one on 9/29, the one closer to the vine, the other frog is Hoppy. The leaf they are on is about 1 1/2" long and 1' wide at widest.