Suicidal White's TreeF.?

[charlamanda]

QUOTE=SethD;37220]Captive bred or captive raised froglets rarely are seriously harmed by parasites. For one thing captive conditions are not usually condusive to developing a very heavy infestation, and for another thing frogs can usually handle even heavy infestations unless they become ill or heavily stressed out due to something else. There tends to be two major reasons why CB froglets die before adulthood. One, improper nutrition, and two contamination from housing them with sick WC frogs. Occasionally a frog will just morph weak and never do well or will develop some other type of problem but from what I have seen the majority of CB froglets that are lost were lost due to one of those two main reasons I mentioned.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Seth, any and all info in greatly appreciated.
So I understand, the parasites are usually not the "primary" problem, but are problematic only with a secondary infection (like Chytrid or other bacterial infections). This secondary infection can create the stress that causes the intestinal parasitic "bloom" and or the stress from changing conditions (buying a new frog), which can also cause the secondary inf. (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) to become evident, activate or worsen significantly. So basically it's the secondary infection (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) that will kill the frog, but the intestinal parasites can weaken the already ill frog and complicate it's treatment of the infection? I would also assume that you would need to rid the frog of the intestinal parasite before effectively treating the frog for the Chytrid, etc, especially if the treatment is given orally? If you give the treatment orally the worms will eat or absorb the medication so the frog will be unable to receive an effective dose to rid it of the infection..or am I stretching here? I am also assuming that the treatment for the intestinal parasites are a mild poison?, and giving the sick frog a treatment to rid it of the parasites, while treating it for another infection maybe lethal in itself?.......It's sounding very confusing and a really bad situation for the frog!!!! The CB frogs usually get these secondary infections from cross contamination from other CB frogs or untreated WC frogs. Have I got this right? BTW all my frogs are wild caught I took in a few weeks after they morphed and left my pool. I have not gotten them dewormed, but all are eating and seem healthy. Do you have any suggestions or thoughts whether I should have them dewormed or any other prophylaxis?

(another one of my pointless stories, but interesting)
This is very similar with people. We can live with parasites for...well our entire lives never having any serious problems (as long as they remain in the intestines), but if the person has say a autoimmune disease or gets a bad and long term virus, like MRSA, the worms will grow and reproduce (I've seen this in a man who came from India. He had every inch of his lg and sm intestine packed with worms I saw on a Upper & lower gi aka barium enema. Under fluoroscopy (continuous X-rays in real time) they were moving and wiggling around...YUCK!!!). He was just extremely thin and malnourished, but otherwise fine.
This may be invaluable info when and if it happens to my frogs, so I'd really like to understand it all now. Thanks again Seth for letting me pick your brain.

[SethD]

Thanks Seth, any and all info in greatly appreciated.
So I understand, the parasites are usually not the "primary" problem, but are problematic only with a secondary infection (like Chytrid or other bacterial infections). This secondary infection can create the stress that causes the intestinal parasitic "bloom" and or the stress from changing conditions (buying a new frog), which can also cause the secondary inf. (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) to become evident, activate or worsen significantly. So basically it's the secondary infection (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) that will kill the frog, but the intestinal parasites can weaken the already ill frog and complicate it's treatment of the infection? I would also assume that you would need to rid the frog of the intestinal parasite before effectively treating the frog for the Chytrid, etc, especially if the treatment is given orally? If you give the treatment orally the worms will eat or absorb the medication so the frog will be unable to receive an effective dose to rid it of the infection..or am I stretching here? I am also assuming that the treatment for the intestinal parasites are a mild poison?, and giving the sick frog a treatment to rid it of the parasites, while treating it for another infection maybe lethal in itself?.......It's sounding very confusing and a really bad situation for the frog!!!! The CB frogs usually get these secondary infections from cross contamination from other CB frogs or untreated WC frogs. Have I got this right? BTW all my frogs are wild caught I took in a few weeks after they morphed and left my pool. I have not gotten them dewormed, but all are eating and seem healthy. Do you have any suggestions or thoughts whether I should have them dewormed or any other prophylaxis?

Yes, you pretty much got it. Much of the time when you see sick captive bred frogs it is because they were contaminated by mixing them, or their cages and bedding with sick wild caught frogs. Pet stores do this quite a bit as do some wholesalers. Sickness in CB frogs is usually caused either by contamination from already sick frogs, poor nutrition, or by keeping them in unsanitary conditions long enough that they get sick from that. As far as deworming I personally don't usually do it for any frog, no matter if it is CB or WC. The reason is if the frog is in good enough shape to handle worming without it causing any issues in most cases it can also handle the parasites. I prefer to let them gradually thin out as they eventually will in captive conditions without a continuous source of reinfection. On the other hand if a frog is in bad shape deworming it can shock its system to the point it can contribute to the death of the frog. If a frog appears weak or malnourished it is much better not to worm it in my opinion, at least until it has a chance to put on some weight and regain some health. About the only exception I make is when a frog has a good appetite but doesn't seem to gain much weight and has a heavy parasite load. In those cases worming is beneficial most of the time.

[charlamanda]

Yes, you pretty much got it. Much of the time when you see sick captive bred frogs it is because they were contaminated by mixing them, or their cages and bedding with sick wild caught frogs. Pet stores do this quite a bit as do some wholesalers. Sickness in CB frogs is usually caused either by contamination from already sick frogs, poor nutrition, or by keeping them in unsanitary conditions long enough that they get sick from that. As far as deworming I personally don't usually do it for any frog, no matter if it is CB or WC. The reason is if the frog is in good enough shape to handle worming without it causing any issues in most cases it can also handle the parasites. I prefer to let them gradually thin out as they eventually will in captive conditions without a continuous source of reinfection. On the other hand if a frog is in bad shape deworming it can shock its system to the point it can contribute to the death of the frog. If a frog appears weak or malnourished it is much better not to worm it in my opinion, at least until it has a chance to put on some weight and regain some health. About the only exception I make is when a frog has a good appetite but doesn't seem to gain much weight and has a heavy parasite load. In those cases worming is beneficial most of the time.

*****Makes perfect sense. Thanks Seth. So instead of subjecting my little guys I wait and watch them. So far all are eating very well and growing and gaining weight. When I took them in most were about 1/2"- almost an inch and they have all doubled, tripled or quadrupled in size. I do have an exception. One frog, Baby, I took in because he/she was so emaciated. Baby has definitely grown and put on some weight, were he/she looks healthy, but obviously not as much as or as fast as the rest. However, he/she was only eating ff for most of the time because of his/her size. In the last few weeks Baby has started eating worms and crickets, but so far hasn't yet starting a significant growth spurt. I wait a bit longer to see if Baby grows, if not it may be a problem with parasites. Then what.. Do I treat for parasites, since he/she is still looking healthy just not growing much? Baby is still a very small froglet, about 1/2 " even though his/her counterparts of the same age are almost 2" long now.

[charlamanda]

*****Makes perfect sense. Thanks Seth. So instead of subjecting my little guys I wait and watch them. So far all are eating very well and growing and gaining weight. When I took them in most were about 1/2"- almost an inch and they have all doubled, tripled or quadrupled in size. I do have an exception. One frog, Baby, I took in because he/she was so emaciated. Baby has definitely grown and put on some weight, were he/she looks healthy, but obviously not as much as or as fast as the rest. However, he/she was only eating ff for most of the time because of his/her size. In the last few weeks Baby has started eating worms and crickets, but so far hasn't yet starting a significant growth spurt. I wait a bit longer to see if Baby grows, if not it may be a problem with parasites. Then what.. Do I treat for parasites, since he/she is still looking healthy just not growing much? Baby is still a very small froglet, about 1/2 " even though his/her counterparts of the same age are almost 2" long now.

Here is a pic of Baby when I took him/her in and one on 9/29, the one closer to the vine, the other frog is Hoppy. The leaf they are on is about 1 1/2" long and 1' wide at widest.