Suicidal White's TreeF.?

[Crystal6]

Okay so, I recently bought 2 Blue Phase tree frogs and, they are both smaller then the ones I've previously owned. Thus when I got them home I was unsure about their behavior.

Usually my younger frogs are more energetic but these ones have been hanging out in their water dish more or less perpetually. At first I wasn't worried because the crickets still disappeared from their cage but this morning it was a little different.

One of them lay stretched out across the water dish totally submerged in water. (Past it's nose.) If this wasn't alarming enough, it's color also changed from dark blue to bright yellow-green. (More like a non-blue phase) Because this was my first time having a blue phase I wasn't sure if the color meant anything but I did promptly take it out of the water to make sure it was still breathing. It was but it seemed oddly lethargic. (Young frogs usually care more when a scary human hand picks them up.)

I put him back in the cage away from the water dish but came back to check on him/her a few hours later. When I returned it was again totally submerged but this time it seemed stiff and the other frog was out of the water dish. I removed the green frog and found it dead.

I promptly cleaned the cage thoroughly and put the healthy frog back in, this time with less water so it could not float in it/ totally submerge it's self. My question is... did it somehow drown or was it ill? (I seem to have a lot of bad luck with frogs and water. >_>)

[1beataway]

I would guess that it was ill first. My young blue phase White's didn't spend that much time in the water. They acted just like adults, hanging out on the glass or on a leaf all day.

I don't know if it was sick and that made it easier for him to drown, or if he was sick and just died, but my guess would be ill (Just a guess from what you described). I would guess it was before you got him. I'm so sorry about your loss.

[wesleybrouwer]

Many people draw the conclusion that their frog drowned,
a healthy frog won't drown that easily, they will climb out when they wan't to.

The reason you find dead frogs in you're waterpart is that they seek to get enlightment for their illness.
They do that by sitting in the water, it helps them against the pain, worms, parasites etc.
Most of the times frogs that spend more time in the water then normal got something that has to be treated,
it's mostly one of the earlier signs something is wrong with them.

Taking some feces and having it examined will help you to diagnose the illness and possibly gives you an oppurtunity to treat it.
Look for a vetenarian in you;re region specialized in exotic animals,
under the microscope they can determine the cause easily most of the times.

In my experience most frogs sitting around the water all day have parasites and/or worms.
When not treated in time, it will kill them.
Most frogs always have worms and parasites, moving them or stressing them out will give them the oppurtunity to become worse because the imume system of the frog will get down a bit.

[charlamanda]

Very sorry for your loss. I know you must be upset and hurting from your loss, but I have to ask you a few questions. You said that you haven't been having much luck with frogs? Are you getting them all from the same place? It seems as though it may not be you as much as your getting sick frogs. If you do get any more, I'd go straight to the vet for an exam, immediately, have a fecal exam, etc. and have them dewormed. Then bring the bill to the pet store/breeder and let them know they sold you frogs that were ill and get a reimbursement. If you don't than he/she will continue this poor practice and you and others will be in this same situation again. Better yet file a complaint with the better business bureau or file a lemon law. There are lots of web sites that are dedicated to helping pet owners in this situation and they will help and guide you through the process.
I've only been a frog owner for several months and on this site about the same time, but I have been hearing a constant theme with recent purchases. Many of the frogs people have been buying/ordering are ill when they get them and the transition, causing considerable stress to the frog, makes the illness worse or make it abundantly apparent the frog is ill. Pet stores or breeders should not sell ill animals of any kind and are responsible if they do, don't let them skate on their obligation to you and hold them responsible for your loss. I am really angry about this and hate to see you and others go through this unnecessarily especially when the animal/pet expires.
I myself am a new owner of Gray Tree frogs and have been up in the air about whether to deworm them or not. I have 13 of them and they are fairly small still. I raised them as tadpoles in my pool and so far they are all doing very, very well.(I am knocking on wood) They are all eating, pooping and are only in their pool on occasion and not more than a few minutes at a time. I am glad to get this info, since they are not dewormed, and I now know what to look out for so I can take immediate action. However, I am sorry to receive this info under these circumstances.
I will help you write letters, etc. on your behalf if you want, let me know.

[IgbyKibbits]

Crystal -

I am so sorry about your loss. I would definitely get your other guy checked out. Chances are if one of them was sick, the other one has been exposed as well. Hopefully, it's early enough that you can treat him sufficiently. I'm so sorry! I know how heartbreaking it is!

Take care -
IgbyKibbits

[Crystal6]

Very sorry for your loss. I know you must be upset and hurting from your loss, but I have to ask you a few questions. You said that you haven't been having much luck with frogs? Are you getting them all from the same place? It seems as though it may not be you as much as your getting sick frogs. If you do get any more, I'd go straight to the vet for an exam, immediately, have a fecal exam, etc. and have them dewormed. Then bring the bill to the pet store/breeder and let them know they sold you frogs that were ill and get a reimbursement. If you don't than he/she will continue this poor practice and you and others will be in this same situation again. Better yet file a complaint with the better business bureau or file a lemon law. There are lots of web sites that are dedicated to helping pet owners in this situation and they will help and guide you through the process.
I've only been a frog owner for several months and on this site about the same time, but I have been hearing a constant theme with recent purchases. Many of the frogs people have been buying/ordering are ill when they get them and the transition, causing considerable stress to the frog, makes the illness worse or make it abundantly apparent the frog is ill. Pet stores or breeders should not sell ill animals of any kind and are responsible if they do, don't let them skate on their obligation to you and hold them responsible for your loss. I am really angry about this and hate to see you and others go through this unnecessarily especially when the animal/pet expires.
I myself am a new owner of Gray Tree frogs and have been up in the air about whether to deworm them or not. I have 13 of them and they are fairly small still. I raised them as tadpoles in my pool and so far they are all doing very, very well.(I am knocking on wood) They are all eating, pooping and are only in their pool on occasion and not more than a few minutes at a time. I am glad to get this info, since they are not dewormed, and I now know what to look out for so I can take immediate action. However, I am sorry to receive this info under these circumstances.
I will help you write letters, etc. on your behalf if you want, let me know.

I mean I have been having bad luck with frogs+water.
When I first came to this website it was because I had been raising tadpoles that kept drowning. (I was used to raising the kind that have no problem getting out of the water. ) And recently I had a different tadpole that died before maturity as well.

As for the second frog, I'm hoping its just stressed from the traveling as it is the one that has actually been exploring the cage and reacting to things as a frog should. I'll try to find a vet in the area anyway though. (Though that is not an easy feat up here in Almost-in-Canada-Maine.)

Edit: Oh, also, I got my first frog from the same people. (Retsu chi) He is still alive and well.

[charlamanda]

I mean I have been having bad luck with frogs+water.
When I first came to this website it was because I had been raising tadpoles that kept drowning. (I was used to raising the kind that have no problem getting out of the water. ) And recently I had a different tadpole that died before maturity as well.

As for the second frog, I'm hoping its just stressed from the traveling as it is the one that has actually been exploring the cage and reacting to things as a frog should. I'll try to find a vet in the area anyway though. (Though that is not an easy feat up here in Almost-in-Canada-Maine.)

Edit: Oh, also, I got my first frog from the same people. (Retsu chi) He is still alive and well.

Sorry for my rant, but I hate to see people go though a loss or have a very sick pet after buying it ill. Pet stores, etc. should care for their stock as if they were their own and sell them in perfect health or be responsable!!!
I am also in the middle of nowhere, I am from a Manhattan suburb so it's relative of course, but I am also finding it difficult to get things around here I need for my frogs. Thank goodness for the internet and credit/debit cards!!!
Luckily I have well water, there are thousands of natural springs in the area that also feed the lakes. It's basically the same H20 that the frogs where used to in the pool already. During the summer when mine were just tads, in my closed pool, I'd fill the pool with water, from my hose, constantly, to keep the water temp constant, it being in the hot sun, and from evaporation. So the transition was flawless.
Do you have tap water?
Do you live in an area with little/no polution? I used to use rain water for my fish when I had tap water, I also use it for my plants, I love plants, my house is full of them as are my froggie homes. They both seem to do very well with the rain water.
Anyone have any thoughts on rain water, instead of treated tap???? Maybe this will help, it's worth a try.
I hope you have better luck, I'd hate to have you loose any more.

[Crystal6]

Sorry for my rant, but I hate to see people go though a loss or have a very sick pet after buying it ill. Pet stores, etc. should care for their stock as if they were their own and sell them in perfect health or be responsable!!!
I am also in the middle of nowhere, I am from a Manhattan suburb so it's relative of course, but I am also finding it difficult to get things around here I need for my frogs. Thank goodness for the internet and credit/debit cards!!!
Luckily I have well water, there are thousands of natural springs in the area that also feed the lakes. It's basically the same H20 that the frogs where used to in the pool already. During the summer when mine were just tads, in my closed pool, I'd fill the pool with water, from my hose, constantly, to keep the water temp constant, it being in the hot sun, and from evaporation. So the transition was flawless.
Do you have tap water?
Do you live in an area with little/no polution? I used to use rain water for my fish when I had tap water, I also use it for my plants, I love plants, my house is full of them as are my froggie homes. They both seem to do very well with the rain water.
Anyone have any thoughts on rain water, instead of treated tap???? Maybe this will help, it's worth a try.
I hope you have better luck, I'd hate to have you loose any more.

Np. The frogs seemed fine when I bought them. The both hopped around exploring their cage. Only odd thing was their staying near water and... well they were in a hot car, water sounded reasonable. And they were both (for the most part) the same turquoise color.

Then abruptly one of the frogs turned green and started floating around in the water like a drowning cricket. This was a picture taken of him before he died.


The other one just seems stressed. (Which makes sense. Suddenly being moved out of it's home into a small container and then put in a noisy expo room. Then being put in a strange new home and having your room mate die in your water dish.) Today it was exploring but I still haven't seen it eat any crickets and it moves pretty slowly.

I'm debating rather I should try the solution for stress. (stress.
Symptoms: animals won't eat and/or lay on their backs while twitching (often occurs with young animals). If you buy a new frog, place it in a small dish with some tepid water and a teaspoon of honey. Place the frog in this solution for 30 minutes. Then quarantine the frog for 30 days.) or the solution for being out of energy. (Another item I use commonly is an Electrolyte solution (Pedialyte), for new frogs or ones that seem dehydrated or listless, a few minutes in a bath of this can bring them around.) from the Frog First Aid.

Anyway. As for water, I don't use rain water out of fear of VOCs.

[Crystal6]

Update: Tried both treatments on the other one in an attempt to help it. (As it's only symptoms have been listlessness and not eating.) Didn't work. *RIP: Both blue phases*

I wish I could bring myself to regret getting them but I can't. The effort was worth the risk of disappointment, though that doesn't make the disappointment less harsh.

[bshmerlie]

So sorry to hear about your frogs.

[wesleybrouwer]

I should contact the supplier,
it's not normal frogs dying on you in such short notice.
Maybe you can arrange something with them.

I must say at first glance, nothings wrong with the frogs.
They seem well fed to me.
It would be guessing what happened.

Can you make a picture of the enclosure and say what the humidity and temperature are?
Maybe there is room for improvement or something.

One thing i would like to comment is,
you can better use a bowl of stone or plastic instead of a steel one.
There is a possibility this puts in metals (not sure of the English word) into the water
wich is not healthy for the frogs actually.


Anyways, contact the person who sold them and tell them how quick they died.
A healthy frog shouldn't have died that easy, 2 of them is even more doubtfull.

[charlamanda]

I should contact the supplier,
it's not normal frogs dying on you in such short notice.
Maybe you can arrange something with them.

I must say at first glance, nothings wrong with the frogs.
They seem well fed to me.
It would be guessing what happened.

Can you make a picture of the enclosure and say what the humidity and temperature are?
Maybe there is room for improvement or something.

One thing i would like to comment is,
you can better use a bowl of stone or plastic instead of a steel one.
There is a possibility this puts in metals (not sure of the English word) into the water
wich is not healthy for the frogs actually.


Anyways, contact the person who sold them and tell them how quick they died.
A healthy frog shouldn't have died that easy, 2 of them is even more doubtfull.

I am so sorry that you have had to go through loosing both of your frogs, this isn't fair at all!!!
I agree, I think your frogs were already sick, like I mentioned before, several people have posted they got new frogs that seemed fine at first then stopped eating and died.
I beleive it turned out that they had parasites. An animal can appear fine and live with these parasite for a while, but if they have any significant stress, being relocated, etc., it can cause the parasites to bloom or reproduce during the time the frogs immune system is lowered from the stress, or actually any illness for that matter can worsen or become evident for this same reason.
Please contact the breeder and discuss this, if they are reasonable and or knowledgable they should be aware of this and hopefully compensate you for your loss, hoepfully with new frogs, that I would bring to the vet immediarely. Don't get rid of the bodies, you may have to bring them to the breeder/pet store for either evidence or have a vet check them, post mortem, IgbyKibbits, has had several die and has had a vet check hers too, she may be able to help you with this.
The breeders/pet store may not have even been aware the frogs were ill either, so give them the benefit of the doubt, until they give you a hard time and mention the pet lemon laws, which protects customers of new pets for this exact reason!!! You can look it up, I think I posted some of the laws under lindyhops recent post and link when her frogs also were sick and died after she had just purchased them.
If you need any help I'd be happy to assist you anyway I can. Again I am so sorry for your losses.

[Jace]

I am so sorry to hear about your frogs.

[SethD]

I doubt it was parasites, particularly when we are talking CB froglets. They would be unlikely to build a heavy parasite load in their short life. Much more likely to be either a bacterial or fungal related issue.

[wesleybrouwer]

By answering another thread, it got me thinking.
You don't use rainwater, but water do you use?
Purified water coincidental?

[Crystal6]

Wow a lot to talk about.
A: I wouldn't be able to find a vet quickly or easily. I live very far away from people like that.
B: Even if I did have a way to find a vet like that, how would I preserve the remaining frog until then? Put it in the freezer with the food? (That sounds... unsanitary.)
C: I use Spring Water. It never smells or tastes like chlorine and my other frogs have not gotten sick from it before.
D: I met them at an expo. I doubt I'd be able to get another frog. (Though perhaps I could get a refund.)

[charlamanda]

Wow a lot to talk about.
A: I wouldn't be able to find a vet quickly or easily. I live very far away from people like that.
B: Even if I did have a way to find a vet like that, how would I preserve the remaining frog until then? Put it in the freezer with the food? (That sounds... unsanitary.)
C: I use Spring Water. It never smells or tastes like chlorine and my other frogs have not gotten sick from it before.
D: I met them at an expo. I doubt I'd be able to get another frog. (Though perhaps I could get a refund.)

Sorry to overwelm you, myself and others, I am sure, just want to make sure you have all your options and info.
I am in the same situation, as far as vets go and yes you can put the frogs inside a ziplock or several and preserve them in the frig if you need to or in another area that is cold or even a cooler with ice or icepack, but thats only if want to. It's been my experience hat after a pet dies the store/breeder wants proof or want find the reason it's expired or some owners have posted they have had there animals/frogs examined p.m. to determine the cause of death, especially since they have other frogs and some are sick as well. Knowing the cause may save their remaining frogs.
You obviously don't have to do anything at all, you need to decide whats best for you.
I think at least, the breeder, should be made aware of the fact both the frogs they sold you have expired. If they have any remaining frogs it may save them if they are sick, and you may get replacement frogs.
Again, I am sorry for your losses and don't want to overload you with info, but unfortuneatly this is a time sensitive issue if you do with to presue your case with the breeder.
As far as the water, you could always have it tested. There are kits sold that will tell you whats in your water at hardware store, fish store and many department stores. From what I have been reading, some water may be too purified for your frog, but I am not the expert.

[charlamanda]

By answering another thread, it got me thinking.
You don't use rainwater, but water do you use?
Purified water coincidental?

Just to clarify..are you saying not to use rainwater? And to whom was the question intented for? I wasn't sure about the rain water and am curious.
I myself use my tap water, but it's from a well from springs and it's very clean around here, little or no polution and full of natural minerals. There are very strict laws in the area and we are not allowed to use anything with gas or oil on the lake at all and toxic spills of any kind are taken very seriously.

[charlamanda]

I doubt it was parasites, particularly when we are talking CB froglets. They would be unlikely to build a heavy parasite load in their short life. Much more likely to be either a bacterial or fungal related issue.

I have lots of froglets about 3 months since their morph.. How long do you think it would take, if they do have parasites, they would get to a critical load producing symptoms? I have not dewormed any of them, but all seem fine and are eating and acting fine..so far.
I only suggested intestinal parasite because I've been reading through the threads and it seems to be an reoccuring issue with new frogs, but I can't recall if all were froglets and or adults. Is it more likely to happen with new adults? Thanks for any info.

[SethD]

I have lots of froglets about 3 months since their morph.. How long do you think it would take, if they do have parasites, they would get to a critical load producing symptoms? I have not dewormed any of them, but all seem fine and are eating and acting fine..so far.
I only suggested intestinal parasite because I've been reading through the threads and it seems to be an reoccuring issue with new frogs, but I can't recall if all were froglets and or adults. Is it more likely to happen with new adults? Thanks for any info.

Captive bred or captive raised froglets rarely are seriously harmed by parasites. For one thing captive conditions are not usually conductive to developing a very heavy infestation, and for another thing frogs can usually handle even heavy infestations unless they become ill or heavily stressed out due to something else. There tends to be two major reasons why CB froglets die before adulthood. One, improper nutrition, and two contamination from housing them with sick WC frogs. Occasionally a frog will just morph weak and never do well or will develop some other type of problem but from what I have seen the majority of CB froglets that are lost were lost due to one of those two main reasons I mentioned.