Suicidal White's TreeF.?

[charlamanda]

I should contact the supplier,
it's not normal frogs dying on you in such short notice.
Maybe you can arrange something with them.

I must say at first glance, nothings wrong with the frogs.
They seem well fed to me.
It would be guessing what happened.

Can you make a picture of the enclosure and say what the humidity and temperature are?
Maybe there is room for improvement or something.

One thing i would like to comment is,
you can better use a bowl of stone or plastic instead of a steel one.
There is a possibility this puts in metals (not sure of the English word) into the water
wich is not healthy for the frogs actually.


Anyways, contact the person who sold them and tell them how quick they died.
A healthy frog shouldn't have died that easy, 2 of them is even more doubtfull.

I am so sorry that you have had to go through loosing both of your frogs, this isn't fair at all!!!
I agree, I think your frogs were already sick, like I mentioned before, several people have posted they got new frogs that seemed fine at first then stopped eating and died.
I beleive it turned out that they had parasites. An animal can appear fine and live with these parasite for a while, but if they have any significant stress, being relocated, etc., it can cause the parasites to bloom or reproduce during the time the frogs immune system is lowered from the stress, or actually any illness for that matter can worsen or become evident for this same reason.
Please contact the breeder and discuss this, if they are reasonable and or knowledgable they should be aware of this and hopefully compensate you for your loss, hoepfully with new frogs, that I would bring to the vet immediarely. Don't get rid of the bodies, you may have to bring them to the breeder/pet store for either evidence or have a vet check them, post mortem, IgbyKibbits, has had several die and has had a vet check hers too, she may be able to help you with this.
The breeders/pet store may not have even been aware the frogs were ill either, so give them the benefit of the doubt, until they give you a hard time and mention the pet lemon laws, which protects customers of new pets for this exact reason!!! You can look it up, I think I posted some of the laws under lindyhops recent post and link when her frogs also were sick and died after she had just purchased them.
If you need any help I'd be happy to assist you anyway I can. Again I am so sorry for your losses.

[Jace]

I am so sorry to hear about your frogs.

[SethD]

I doubt it was parasites, particularly when we are talking CB froglets. They would be unlikely to build a heavy parasite load in their short life. Much more likely to be either a bacterial or fungal related issue.

[wesleybrouwer]

By answering another thread, it got me thinking.
You don't use rainwater, but water do you use?
Purified water coincidental?

[Crystal6]

Wow a lot to talk about.
A: I wouldn't be able to find a vet quickly or easily. I live very far away from people like that.
B: Even if I did have a way to find a vet like that, how would I preserve the remaining frog until then? Put it in the freezer with the food? (That sounds... unsanitary.)
C: I use Spring Water. It never smells or tastes like chlorine and my other frogs have not gotten sick from it before.
D: I met them at an expo. I doubt I'd be able to get another frog. (Though perhaps I could get a refund.)

[charlamanda]

Wow a lot to talk about.
A: I wouldn't be able to find a vet quickly or easily. I live very far away from people like that.
B: Even if I did have a way to find a vet like that, how would I preserve the remaining frog until then? Put it in the freezer with the food? (That sounds... unsanitary.)
C: I use Spring Water. It never smells or tastes like chlorine and my other frogs have not gotten sick from it before.
D: I met them at an expo. I doubt I'd be able to get another frog. (Though perhaps I could get a refund.)

Sorry to overwelm you, myself and others, I am sure, just want to make sure you have all your options and info.
I am in the same situation, as far as vets go and yes you can put the frogs inside a ziplock or several and preserve them in the frig if you need to or in another area that is cold or even a cooler with ice or icepack, but thats only if want to. It's been my experience hat after a pet dies the store/breeder wants proof or want find the reason it's expired or some owners have posted they have had there animals/frogs examined p.m. to determine the cause of death, especially since they have other frogs and some are sick as well. Knowing the cause may save their remaining frogs.
You obviously don't have to do anything at all, you need to decide whats best for you.
I think at least, the breeder, should be made aware of the fact both the frogs they sold you have expired. If they have any remaining frogs it may save them if they are sick, and you may get replacement frogs.
Again, I am sorry for your losses and don't want to overload you with info, but unfortuneatly this is a time sensitive issue if you do with to presue your case with the breeder.
As far as the water, you could always have it tested. There are kits sold that will tell you whats in your water at hardware store, fish store and many department stores. From what I have been reading, some water may be too purified for your frog, but I am not the expert.

[charlamanda]

By answering another thread, it got me thinking.
You don't use rainwater, but water do you use?
Purified water coincidental?

Just to clarify..are you saying not to use rainwater? And to whom was the question intented for? I wasn't sure about the rain water and am curious.
I myself use my tap water, but it's from a well from springs and it's very clean around here, little or no polution and full of natural minerals. There are very strict laws in the area and we are not allowed to use anything with gas or oil on the lake at all and toxic spills of any kind are taken very seriously.

[Crystal6]

Just to clarify..are you saying not to use rainwater? And to whom was the question intented for? I wasn't sure about the rain water and am curious.
I myself use my tap water, but it's from a well from springs and it's very clean around here, little or no polution and full of natural minerals. There are very strict laws in the area and we are not allowed to use anything with gas or oil on the lake at all and toxic spills of any kind are taken very seriously.

Amazing. The pollution where I live is pretty bad so I don't use rain water. Back when I had Woodfrogs I used to use the lake water though. (Because I wasn't sure which minerals/chemicals they did/didn't need.)

I used spring water, OR I boil regular water, OR I treat it with a solution to rid of it chlorine. Lately it's just been spring water but I've used all of those methods with little problem.

[charlamanda]

Amazing. The pollution where I live is pretty bad so I don't use rain water. Back when I had Woodfrogs I used to use the lake water though. (Because I wasn't sure which minerals/chemicals they did/didn't need.)

I used spring water, OR I boil regular water, OR I treat it with a solution to rid of it chlorine. Lately it's just been spring water but I've used all of those methods with little problem.

WOW I am surprised you have that much polution since you mentioned you are in the middle of nowhere, that's aweful and sorry about that! I think your water choices are fine, I just don't understand what happened to your poor frogs. Sadly without a necropsy you may never know what happened, but I hope if you decide to get any more frogs they do better than these.
Maybe you can try another breed that is hardier, like Gray Tree Frogs. I just love mine and from what I understand they are very easy and hardy tree frogs, not to mention very entertaining and wonderful tame pets. I have 13 now and a entire pool full of tadpoles, I'd love to send them, but I am still waiting to hear from the Pa Fish and Game Comission on that issue. If you wre closer I'd just drive them over.
Are you in Canada or US? I will check with the Pa F & G Comission about crossing states and country borders too.
I know that there are several websites that are linked and or reccomended maybe you can try ordering a new frog/frogs from there. Best of luck.

[wesleybrouwer]

Just to clarify..are you saying not to use rainwater? And to whom was the question intented for? I wasn't sure about the rain water and am curious.
I myself use my tap water, but it's from a well from springs and it's very clean around here, little or no polution and full of natural minerals. There are very strict laws in the area and we are not allowed to use anything with gas or oil on the lake at all and toxic spills of any kind are taken very seriously.

Hi, the question was intended for Crystal.
Rainwater is mostly fine, when you filter out the pieces of leaves and stuff that regularly comes with it.
Sometimes in dense areas i would be carefull using it after a period of dright,
i believe it also takes all kind of floating pieces with it that are out in the air,
like exhausting gasses.

I was talking about purified water.
Like in osmose or distilled water.
This will cause a reverse osmose effect between water inside you're frog and the water he sits in.
I posted it somewhere on a topic that is about the differences in water.

[wesleybrouwer]

@Charlamandra

What seth means is that every frog have some parasites and worms,
some of them are actually quit good for them,
just as we have good and bad bacterias.

WC frogs ALWAYS are infested with them while CB will have far less.
By putting a WC with a CB you give the oppurtunity to pass on some of the stuff from nature into your "clean"environment.

Another big problem can be between 2 WC species from a different place.
A frog from America may be resistant to types of diseases since evolutionary they geneticaly build up resistance.
Adding for example an Asian frog to it,
you bring in stuff they are not resistant to since it is unknown for their biology,
same goes with the Asian frog that will be prone to catch a typical American disease.

Besides those problems,
any stress will put down the defence mechanism of you're frog,
the parasites and/or worms will boom since the body isn't able to fight it.
Number one cause will be stress, this will weaken any frog significantly.
Adding another frog and even handling them, especially WC, will stress them out and weaken them a lot.
Therefore the parasite or whatever will be able to take control and make you;re frog sick
wich worsens the stress and make it sicker, most people will then get the frog extra attention by picking it up and stressing it even more.

In the end, dead is the result of it.

Best way to deal is,
let the frog be and try to collect feces for examination,
If it soes not poo you can get him/here out of the tank by using gloves
and put it in a little bowl of luke water.
After 5-10 minutes get it out and put the frog in a small enclosure with some kitchen towel or little moist cottonwool.
Most of the time the frog will get something out for you

Then let it examin by microscope as soon as possible to check what is wrong with the frog.
By doing this in time, the vet can often tell you what is wrong and give you a treatment.
Most chance that the frog will make it that way.

Sidenote to that is, i think a frog shoul never be sold sick already.
Before buying it, check for any signs of a disease if possible.
A sick frog can be recognized quit well.
When you got doubts, just don't buy it out of compassion.
A waste of money and the frog will die anyways.

[charlamanda]

Hi, the question was intended for Crystal.
Rainwater is mostly fine, when you filter out the pieces of leaves and stuff that regularly comes with it.
Sometimes in dense areas i would be carefull using it after a period of dright,
i believe it also takes all kind of floating pieces with it that are out in the air,
like exhausting gasses.

I was talking about purified water.
Like in osmose or distilled water.
This will cause a reverse osmose effect between water inside you're frog and the water he sits in.
I posted it somewhere on a topic that is about the differences in water.

Thanks for clarifying. I would use a bucket that was cleaned, covered with a mess netting and not under any trees or gutter run off from the house.

[charlamanda]

I doubt it was parasites, particularly when we are talking CB froglets. They would be unlikely to build a heavy parasite load in their short life. Much more likely to be either a bacterial or fungal related issue.

I have lots of froglets about 3 months since their morph.. How long do you think it would take, if they do have parasites, they would get to a critical load producing symptoms? I have not dewormed any of them, but all seem fine and are eating and acting fine..so far.
I only suggested intestinal parasite because I've been reading through the threads and it seems to be an reoccuring issue with new frogs, but I can't recall if all were froglets and or adults. Is it more likely to happen with new adults? Thanks for any info.

[SethD]

I have lots of froglets about 3 months since their morph.. How long do you think it would take, if they do have parasites, they would get to a critical load producing symptoms? I have not dewormed any of them, but all seem fine and are eating and acting fine..so far.
I only suggested intestinal parasite because I've been reading through the threads and it seems to be an reoccuring issue with new frogs, but I can't recall if all were froglets and or adults. Is it more likely to happen with new adults? Thanks for any info.

Captive bred or captive raised froglets rarely are seriously harmed by parasites. For one thing captive conditions are not usually conductive to developing a very heavy infestation, and for another thing frogs can usually handle even heavy infestations unless they become ill or heavily stressed out due to something else. There tends to be two major reasons why CB froglets die before adulthood. One, improper nutrition, and two contamination from housing them with sick WC frogs. Occasionally a frog will just morph weak and never do well or will develop some other type of problem but from what I have seen the majority of CB froglets that are lost were lost due to one of those two main reasons I mentioned.

[charlamanda]

QUOTE=SethD;37220]Captive bred or captive raised froglets rarely are seriously harmed by parasites. For one thing captive conditions are not usually condusive to developing a very heavy infestation, and for another thing frogs can usually handle even heavy infestations unless they become ill or heavily stressed out due to something else. There tends to be two major reasons why CB froglets die before adulthood. One, improper nutrition, and two contamination from housing them with sick WC frogs. Occasionally a frog will just morph weak and never do well or will develop some other type of problem but from what I have seen the majority of CB froglets that are lost were lost due to one of those two main reasons I mentioned.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Seth, any and all info in greatly appreciated.
So I understand, the parasites are usually not the "primary" problem, but are problematic only with a secondary infection (like Chytrid or other bacterial infections). This secondary infection can create the stress that causes the intestinal parasitic "bloom" and or the stress from changing conditions (buying a new frog), which can also cause the secondary inf. (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) to become evident, activate or worsen significantly. So basically it's the secondary infection (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) that will kill the frog, but the intestinal parasites can weaken the already ill frog and complicate it's treatment of the infection? I would also assume that you would need to rid the frog of the intestinal parasite before effectively treating the frog for the Chytrid, etc, especially if the treatment is given orally? If you give the treatment orally the worms will eat or absorb the medication so the frog will be unable to receive an effective dose to rid it of the infection..or am I stretching here? I am also assuming that the treatment for the intestinal parasites are a mild poison?, and giving the sick frog a treatment to rid it of the parasites, while treating it for another infection maybe lethal in itself?.......It's sounding very confusing and a really bad situation for the frog!!!! The CB frogs usually get these secondary infections from cross contamination from other CB frogs or untreated WC frogs. Have I got this right? BTW all my frogs are wild caught I took in a few weeks after they morphed and left my pool. I have not gotten them dewormed, but all are eating and seem healthy. Do you have any suggestions or thoughts whether I should have them dewormed or any other prophylaxis?

(another one of my pointless stories, but interesting)
This is very similar with people. We can live with parasites for...well our entire lives never having any serious problems (as long as they remain in the intestines), but if the person has say a autoimmune disease or gets a bad and long term virus, like MRSA, the worms will grow and reproduce (I've seen this in a man who came from India. He had every inch of his lg and sm intestine packed with worms I saw on a Upper & lower gi aka barium enema. Under fluoroscopy (continuous X-rays in real time) they were moving and wiggling around...YUCK!!!). He was just extremely thin and malnourished, but otherwise fine.
This may be invaluable info when and if it happens to my frogs, so I'd really like to understand it all now. Thanks again Seth for letting me pick your brain.

[SethD]

Thanks Seth, any and all info in greatly appreciated.
So I understand, the parasites are usually not the "primary" problem, but are problematic only with a secondary infection (like Chytrid or other bacterial infections). This secondary infection can create the stress that causes the intestinal parasitic "bloom" and or the stress from changing conditions (buying a new frog), which can also cause the secondary inf. (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) to become evident, activate or worsen significantly. So basically it's the secondary infection (Chytrid or bacterial inf.) that will kill the frog, but the intestinal parasites can weaken the already ill frog and complicate it's treatment of the infection? I would also assume that you would need to rid the frog of the intestinal parasite before effectively treating the frog for the Chytrid, etc, especially if the treatment is given orally? If you give the treatment orally the worms will eat or absorb the medication so the frog will be unable to receive an effective dose to rid it of the infection..or am I stretching here? I am also assuming that the treatment for the intestinal parasites are a mild poison?, and giving the sick frog a treatment to rid it of the parasites, while treating it for another infection maybe lethal in itself?.......It's sounding very confusing and a really bad situation for the frog!!!! The CB frogs usually get these secondary infections from cross contamination from other CB frogs or untreated WC frogs. Have I got this right? BTW all my frogs are wild caught I took in a few weeks after they morphed and left my pool. I have not gotten them dewormed, but all are eating and seem healthy. Do you have any suggestions or thoughts whether I should have them dewormed or any other prophylaxis?

Yes, you pretty much got it. Much of the time when you see sick captive bred frogs it is because they were contaminated by mixing them, or their cages and bedding with sick wild caught frogs. Pet stores do this quite a bit as do some wholesalers. Sickness in CB frogs is usually caused either by contamination from already sick frogs, poor nutrition, or by keeping them in unsanitary conditions long enough that they get sick from that. As far as deworming I personally don't usually do it for any frog, no matter if it is CB or WC. The reason is if the frog is in good enough shape to handle worming without it causing any issues in most cases it can also handle the parasites. I prefer to let them gradually thin out as they eventually will in captive conditions without a continuous source of reinfection. On the other hand if a frog is in bad shape deworming it can shock its system to the point it can contribute to the death of the frog. If a frog appears weak or malnourished it is much better not to worm it in my opinion, at least until it has a chance to put on some weight and regain some health. About the only exception I make is when a frog has a good appetite but doesn't seem to gain much weight and has a heavy parasite load. In those cases worming is beneficial most of the time.