Please Help! Results of Necropsy: Lungworms?!

[IgbyKibbits]

Hello guys.

So, I've gotten the results of the necropsy for Igby :sad: She died due to nodular pneumonia caused by lungworms. I'm a little surprised given that we did fecal cultures on both Igby and Kibbits! Wouldn't the worms have passed through and shown up in the culture? We definitely treated both Igby and Kibbits for all parasites that tested positive. Do you think it was just too late!?

Obviously, I'm very scared at this point from what I'm reading. Any advice on the following questions would be appreciated:

1. We kept little Quibble completely quarantined in a separate tank, on paper towels, and washed the tank each night with boiling water. We changed our gloves every time we handled each frog (so no cross-contamination there). We even had separate crickets for Quibble vs. Igby. Given how quickly these lungworms breed, do you think that he is okay?

2. Could Igby/Kibbits have only gotten this while living at the petstore, prior to us bringing them home OR can a captive environment be contaminated with parasites through other means, i.e. a new bag of substrate, crickets bought from the store, tap water?! We just want to make sure we are doing everything we can to protect our new frogs (other than NOT buying from the petstore and getting them from reputable breeders where we know they were captive bred!)

3. Before moving our new frogs (Ori and Boris) into their own quarantine tank (the main tank that Igby/Kibbits lived in prior to getting sick), we soaked everything in a 10% bleach solution and then rinsed multiple times with boiling water, baked the wood, etc. Would all that cleaning be enough to kill lungworms that might have been living in a tank, or could Ori/Boris now be exposed?


Any advice would be extremely helpful!! Has anyone dealt with this before? Why would lungworms cause spots on the skin? Why wouldn't this show up in cultures!?

We just don't want to lose anymore frogs : (

[charlamanda]

[QUOTE=IgbyKibbits;37317]Hello guys.



Hello, I can't believe how sick your poor frog was. Did she has the lung worms and the Chytrid too?
Based on my medical background I will try to help answer some of your questions. I also read a lot and even amaze myself how much I can retain so her it goes and I hope this helps.
Q.So, I've gotten the results of the necropsy for Igby :sad: She died due to nodular pneumonia caused by lungworms. I'm a little surprised given that we did fecal cultures on both Igby and Kibbits! Wouldn't the worms have passed through and shown up in the culture? We definitely treated both Igby and Kibbits for all parasites that tested positive. Do you think it was just too late!?
A.***Yes they should have at certain times though. The life cycle of the lung worms are that they will leave the lungs and either be coughed up or passed through the intestine to find a new host. I may have been that when the fecal culture was done the lung worms were not at that point in it's life cycle. I am a bit rusty with my medical info, but I am pretty sure of this. I don't know whether or not the medication for other parasites would have killed the lung parasites or whether a different medication or method of delivery was needed for treatment. The medications that can kill adults may not kill the larvae and several doses may need to be given over a long period of time to kill all the worms in it's different stages. Sometimes they will do a lung lavauge, (sp?) where fluid in introduced into the lung via a tube, with sterile saline with or with out medication and then either suctioned or coughed back up or out and sometimes the cells are biopsied. I don't even know whether a vet could have found them without an xray, a lung lavauge, blood cultures or with a negative fecal culture. Best bet was to have done multiple cultures over a period of time to check during the life cycle of the lung worm and blood cultures.
Q. We kept little Quibble completely quarantined in a separate tank, on paper towels, and washed the tank each night with boiling water. We changed our gloves every time we handled each frog (so no cross-contamination there). We even had separate crickets for Quibble vs. Igby. Given how quickly these lungworms breed, do you think that he is okay?
A.***I would think with all the precautions you have taken, the same technique used in a hospital setting by nurses and Dr's, Quibble's chances of getting the lung worms should be minimal or very slim. I would still be vigilant though with all the remaining frogs just in case.

Q.Could Igby/Kibbits have only gotten this while living at the petstore, prior to us bringing them home OR can a captive environment be contaminated with parasites through other means, i.e. a new bag of substrate, crickets bought from the store, tap water?! We just want to make sure we are doing everything we can to protect our new frogs (other than NOT buying from the petstore and getting them from reputable breeders where we know they were captive bred!)
A.****It's very possible the frogs had them when you bought them, but I don't know for how long the could have survived with it though. It's possible the Chytrid lowered it's resistance or vise versa (more probable). The most common way for it to be transmitted is from contaminated feed from grass maybe mosses or even soil, even water run off from an animals fecal matter that has or had them. Most tap water has been chlorinated and or treated and tested and probably not the source. I would guess that it is more likely from either from another frog by direct contact or contact with the frogs feces. It could be from soil or mosses. Crickets, however, I am not sure about. I don't know whether they can carry or even get lungworms.
Q. Before moving our new frogs (Ori and Boris) into their own quarantine tank (the main tank that Igby/Kibbits lived in prior to getting sick), we soaked everything in a 10% bleach solution and then rinsed multiple times with boiling water, baked the wood, etc. Would all that cleaning be enough to kill lungworms that might have been living in a tank, or could Ori/Boris now be exposed?
A.****I believe that bleach is strong enough to kill the worms and larvae, but I'd have to look that up.

[Paul Rust]

Lung-worms can be treated with Fenbendazole (Panacur-C).
I dust my frogs food with it for 3 days on the first of every month, it is very safe. I also do random fecal exams and they have always been acceptable since I started using this maintenance program. It likely had the worms already when you brought it home. I recommend always treating for parasites on a new arrival while it is in it's quarantine period (30 days).

Note: You have to do more than one fecal exam to be positive because the animal may not be shedding during the first fecal. Also, the fecal exam may have showed parasites but the tech doing the exam may have determined it to be too few to say your animal was infected.

[charlamanda]

Lung-worms can be treated with Fenbendazole (Panacur-C).
I dust my frogs food with it for 3 days on the first of every month, it is very safe. I also do random fecal exams and they have always been acceptable since I started using this maintenance program. It likely had the worms already when you brought it home. I recommend always treating for parasites on a new arrival while it is in it's quarantine period (30 days).

Note: You have to do more than one fecal exam to be positive because the animal may not be shedding during the first fecal. Also, the fecal exam may have showed parasites but the tech doing the exam may have determined it to be too few to say your animal was infected.

Thank for the info Paul.
Will the Fenbendazole kill any and all parasites in all stages of it's developement??? Can I get this medication OTC or do I need to get a Rx from a vet?

[Paul Rust]

It is a broad spectrum parasiticide. It will do the job on most parasites. Get it in the three 4 gram packets.

Panacur C: Wormer for Dogs - 1800PetMeds

[IgbyKibbits]

Thank you both for such quick responses! It's tremendously appreciated!

Just a quick response to Charla - no, from everything I understand it was NOT Chytrid, just lungworms. I insisted that they test for that in the necropsy, and when the vet called, she did not mention it reading the final report.

Since posting, I actually contacted two other vets (familiar with lungworms) to find out if they've ever seen those bizarre spots with other "lungworm" cases. Nothing I've read on lungworms mentions anything about skin discoloration!

Thank you so much for further explaining the fecal culture situation! When we initially brought home Igby/Kibbits from the petstore, I had fecal cultures done (that was nearly a year ago with a different vet), and when nothing had a positive hit, I thought I was in the clear. : ( It's just so heartbreaking to have fought so hard to save Igby/Kibbits (doing all those tests/cultures/radiographs, putting them through so much with antibiotic shots, etc.) and now know that the problem could have been so easily solved months before it became an issue. While I'm sad that we didn't know enough to save Igby/Kibbits, I'm so glad that we know now for our three companions.

All three frogs (Quibble, Ori, and Boris) have a vet appointment tomorrow to get "deworm" treatment as a precaution and get another round of fecal cultures. Better safe than sorry! I certainly don't want to go through these last few months again. : (

Thank you again for all your help. I can't begin to tell you how much this forum has helped me.

[IgbyKibbits]

One last question:

How long should I keep the frogs in "hospital tanks" (stripped down, with just paper towels) after the deworming treatment prior to moving them back to their respective, much nicer "quarantine" tanks (Ori/Boris in the main tank & Quibble in his smaller exoterra tank).

Obviously, when I get home tomorrow, I'm going to strip both quarantine tanks and completely re-sterilize; I just don't know if I need to keep them in hospital tanks or if so, how long after the treatment. Thanks!

[Paul Rust]

I would wait until at least 2 clean fecal exams at least a week apart before I move them back. I know it is expensive and that's why I do my own. It really is simple, if you want to give it a shot look at this article.

http://www.frogforum.net/care-articl...cal-exams.html

I am very pleased to hear that you find this site helpful!

[SethD]

Hello guys.

So, I've gotten the results of the necropsy for Igby :sad: She died due to nodular pneumonia caused by lungworms. I'm a little surprised given that we did fecal cultures on both Igby and Kibbits! Wouldn't the worms have passed through and shown up in the culture? We definitely treated both Igby and Kibbits for all parasites that tested positive. Do you think it was just too late!?

Take what the vet tells you was the cause of death with a grain of salt, maybe that was the cause and maybe not, very very few vets know much about amphibians so in a necropsy it is not uncommon for them to blame it on something that is a symptom or accompanying issue rather than the primary cause of death. After all if your paying for a necropsy they don't really want to tell you "I don't know". Sometimes I think amphibian medicine is just slightly more advanced then human medicine was in the days where they often blamed malaria and yellow fever on "swamp vapors". Most of the time vets just give broad spectrum antibiotics or broad spectrum antifungal medication and if that works great, if not about 9 out of 10 times they have no more real idea what the problem is than you do. That is why I never bother taking sick frogs to vets unless I already have a good idea what the problem is and just need prescription meds that I couldn't otherwise get.

Why would lungworms cause spots on the skin?

They wouldn't.

We just don't want to lose anymore frogs : (

If the death was not not bacterial or fungal related chances are you will not if the other frogs appear healthy.

[Herpvet]

Hi,

Sorry to chime in a little late, but a couple of comments in addition to those already made:

a) Certain lungworms burrow directly through the skin, and therefore CAN cause skin lesions - depends on the species of lungworm

b) Worm infestations won't show up on cultures (unless you're specifically culturing for the worms - might be theoretically possible, but certainly not routine as far as I'm aware) - you need to examine the faeces with a microscope

c) In my experience panacur is pretty ineffective against lungworms

d) I would advise going to the vet for wormer. If treating with a wormer in a potentially heavily infested amphib, it is usually worth giving concurrent antibiotic cover and anti-inflammatory drugs. If there's a lot of lungowrms, for example, them all spasming and dying from the wormer inside the lungs can cause a lot of damage, and predispose to bacterial or fungal pneumionia.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.

Hello guys.

So, I've gotten the results of the necropsy for Igby :sad: She died due to nodular pneumonia caused by lungworms. I'm a little surprised given that we did fecal cultures on both Igby and Kibbits! Wouldn't the worms have passed through and shown up in the culture? We definitely treated both Igby and Kibbits for all parasites that tested positive. Do you think it was just too late!?

Obviously, I'm very scared at this point from what I'm reading. Any advice on the following questions would be appreciated:

1. We kept little Quibble completely quarantined in a separate tank, on paper towels, and washed the tank each night with boiling water. We changed our gloves every time we handled each frog (so no cross-contamination there). We even had separate crickets for Quibble vs. Igby. Given how quickly these lungworms breed, do you think that he is okay?

2. Could Igby/Kibbits have only gotten this while living at the petstore, prior to us bringing them home OR can a captive environment be contaminated with parasites through other means, i.e. a new bag of substrate, crickets bought from the store, tap water?! We just want to make sure we are doing everything we can to protect our new frogs (other than NOT buying from the petstore and getting them from reputable breeders where we know they were captive bred!)

3. Before moving our new frogs (Ori and Boris) into their own quarantine tank (the main tank that Igby/Kibbits lived in prior to getting sick), we soaked everything in a 10% bleach solution and then rinsed multiple times with boiling water, baked the wood, etc. Would all that cleaning be enough to kill lungworms that might have been living in a tank, or could Ori/Boris now be exposed?


Any advice would be extremely helpful!! Has anyone dealt with this before? Why would lungworms cause spots on the skin? Why wouldn't this show up in cultures!?

We just don't want to lose anymore frogs : (

[Paul Rust]

Hi,

c) In my experience panacur is pretty ineffective against lungworms.

This is good to know Bruce, thanks.

[charlamanda]

It is a broad spectrum parasiticide. It will do the job on most parasites. Get it in the three 4 gram packets.

Panacur C: Wormer for Dogs - 1800PetMeds

AWESOME!!! I am going to order it ASAP!

[charlamanda]

[QUOTE=Herpvet;37420]Hi,

I would advise going to the vet for wormer. If treating with a wormer in a potentially heavily infested amphib, it is usually worth giving concurrent antibiotic cover and anti-inflammatory drugs. If there's a lot of lungowrms, for example, them all spasming and dying from the wormer inside the lungs can cause a lot of damage, and predispose to bacterial or fungal pneumionia.
Hi Bruce,
I have heard this or most likely read it too, even in other animals and humans, and a very good point!
Seems to be very common in live stock: sheep, cows, goats and rampant in rats!
If you think of it something dead or dying in your lungs it will , I assume, 1. try to get out and if there are enough could suffocate the host, but 2.they also will decay in delicate lung tissue, which will cause scaring and decreased lung function!! I started reading my medical books and info online for help!
If there are enough in the blood stream it can cause septicemia as well!
Looking back I think it's probably better to treat all your frogs, mine too, prophylacticly, better than trying to get rid of them later, which seems not only very difficult, but very dangerous undertaking.

[charlamanda]

[QUOTE=Herpvet;37420]Hi,

Worm infestations won't show up on cultures (unless you're specifically culturing for the worms - might be theoretically possible, but certainly not routine as far as I'm aware) - you need to examine the faeces with a microscope

Hi Bruce again,
I have a quick question...What do they check for in fecal culture than if they are not looking for worms/parasites? or Do you specifically need to do an O & P rather than a fecal culture?

[charlamanda]

Just a side note.
I have to say that just reading through, almost all the threads, of different problems and having so many experts and peoples experience with their frogs is fantastically interesting and informative.
I myself don't have much experience with frogs specifically, but I do have 22 years of a medical background and even more with other pets, which occasionally relates and helps. It's nice to be able to contribute from time to time and what I don't know 100%, I am happy to look up and research.
Thanks to everyone, my fellow nerds and frog enthusiasts for your patients, understanding and vast knowledge. Kudos! What a wonderful site I stumbled upon!!

[SethD]

Hi,
a) Certain lungworms burrow directly through the skin, and therefore CAN cause skin lesions - depends on the species of lungworm

Perhaps, while I haven't seen that in frogs I can't rule it out completely, but if that were the case one would think that logically the lesions would tend to be primarily on the belly or ventral region instead of on the back and sides. I have seen quite a few sick frogs and most of the time lesions seem to be caused either by abrasions or by severe bacterial infections.