Red Eye Tree Frog question

[crhoads18]

I ordered a trio of Red Eyed Tree Frogs and received them today via mail. This is my very first order of frogs that required they be shipped to me. This is also my first Red Eyed purchase. The man that I ordered the frogs from had a picture of one of the frogs which looked like this:


However, when I opened the package, I got this:



One of the poor things was DOA (The last picture). However, of the three, none of them look like the picture of what I purchased. To me it looks like scars and a nose rub, but I thought that I would check here first to see if it could possibly some type of stress from shipping that may disappear in a few hours before I contact the seller.

Any input and information would be greatly appreciated.

[Ebony]

Hi Cheryl. Im so sorry. This is terrible. How were they packed?

[crhoads18]

Here you can see the box as it was when I opened it. The three circular cups contain the red eyed tree frogs. The one at the top is alive as well as the one that still has the top covered. The bottom left one is the DOA. (In case you were wondering, the produce type container has a Malaysian Leaf Frog.)

Here are the opened containers:




Hopefully, the pictures will help.

[Ebony]

That is just so sad. The poor little frogs. I feel that they would have been bumped around to much within the containers they are in. I dont know the usual packaging in the US so another member will be able to set you straight. NZ is only 1985 km from top to bottom. How far were they travelling? I basically plant my frogs in the middle of sphagnum moss firmly so they cant move around. Sorry I cant be of more help.

[SethD]

They look typical of what you get a lot of times when you buy wild caught frogs. Wc's are not always in the best of condition. That is why it is generally recommended to buy captive bred frogs when possible. With a species like red eyes it isn't hard to find CB frogs. It looks to me as if your frogs got scraped from jumping against a wire lid and were stressed out in general from the care or lack thereof they probably received at the export facility.. On the bright side assuming they live the chances are good they will be the picture of health and with no visible scaring remaining in a few months.

[Paul Rust]

I talked to her and she got them from a private person not a business. I told her exactly what Seth said and agree with him.
@ Ebony, most reputable shippers package them in lots of sphagnum moss to keep them hydrated and secure.
@ Seth, PM sent.

[bshmerlie]

I think you should post where you got them from as a warning for other buyers to stay away from this company. I was so sad when I saw what happened to your frogs.

[Paul Rust]

I had a conversation with Seth because he has dealt with a lot of stuff like this and knows a lot of sellers. He has had WC frogs arrive in much worse shape, I'll spare you the details. The good news is that the survivors will probably be fine and if they are scarred up it just makes them special (thinking of Philomenia and Inshallah) two badly damaged babies that are dear to my heart. It is up to the OP to decide to reveal the seller and hopefully the seller makes it right for her. I will tell you it was not a sponsor of this forum that sold them to her.

Edit: I hope you don't mind me mentioning our conversation Seth.

[SethD]

I doubt there will be scaring at all from the looks of things. It looks like shallow though extensive rubbing that didn't even go through the skin. Something that would heal up completely in a few months max assuming they do ok. If there is no "meat" showing in the wounds it is a pretty sure thing that it will not leave visible scarring if the frog lives. They look a little battered, which is not uncommon for wc frogs, but they don't look terrible. If they eat they will probably be ok.

[crhoads18]

The frogs came from Louisville KY, I am in Manchester TN. The seller stated that he was not the first person to own these frogs. He said:

"The RETF I have had for a few months now & they are all doing very well.....they were very skinny when I got them (pretty much rescued) them from their previous owner.....I am not sure if they are CB or WC though. Again, they are all in good condition and honestly represented."

Basically I'd like to know:

1. Is there any possible way this could have happened during shipping?

2. I've seen some people say these will heal given time, but they look like old wounds (healed) to me. Is there anyway to know the age of the wounds?

3. Should I medicate? (Again my initial impression was that these were scars)

**EDIT** I am trying to give the seller the benefit of the doubt.

[Paul Rust]

I would certainly treat with Panacur using the dusting method.
http://www.frogforum.net/care-articl...first-aid.html
Ask him to replace the dead frog, if he won't then reveal his identity here. I would be thankful that any are still alive and buy from Josh's Frogs, Alpha Pro Breeders or Brooklyn Dart frogs from now on. They will deliver 1st rate animals and guarantee them. Every frog I have ever received from Josh has been in excellent condition and as a matter of fact the first frog I ever bought was a yellow Galac that he sold me and he is still going strong and healthy. Stay away from shady dealers on kingsnake and fauna. I'm sorry this happenned to you and I hope people will learn something from it.

[Lacey]

Why not take them to the vet and see if there is anything they can do to help and if they have any parasite issues to treat as well. I am so sorry about what happened to your frogs and wish I could help. I hope that you keep the frogs so they don't have to be shipped again. I'm sure that you are looking out for their best interests.

[SethD]

2. I've seen some people say these will heal given time, but they look like old wounds (healed) to me. Is there anyway to know the age of the wounds?

3. Should I medicate? (Again my initial impression was that these were scars)

Other than an educated guess based on how it looks there is no way to know the age of the scratches. I tend to doubt that they are old healed scars because I doubt a frog that was injured badly enough to leave scarring of that degree on the head region would survive the wounds. It looks more like what I call "paint scratching" where the frog gets the colored part of his skin scraped off usually by leaping against something. Such light scratches look just like the pictured frogs and will heal over in a few months. As far as medication for the wounds it shouldn't be necessary no deeper than it appears to be. It should heal on its own.

[Paul Rust]

Other than an educated guess based on how it looks there is no way to know the age of the scratches. I tend to doubt that they are old healed scars because I doubt a frog that was injured badly enough to leave scarring of that degree on the head region would survive the wounds. It looks more like what I call "paint scratching" where the frog gets the colored part of his skin scraped off usually by leaping against something. Such light scratches look just like the pictured frogs and will heal over in a few months. As far as medication for the wounds it shouldn't be necessary no deeper than it appears to be. It should heal on its own.

I completely agree here. Just treat for parasites and chalk it up to experience. We really appreciate you weghing in on this Seth.

[Kurt]

I guess I am not needed here. The situation is under control.

[Paul Rust]

I guess I am not needed here. The situation is under control.

Yeah so get lost.

LMAO, just kidding Kurt, I'm glad you approve.

[Kurt]

You guys said it all. The only thing I can add is, I have noticed that wild caught red-eyes have bright orange hands & feet, while in captive bred ones the orange is less intense.

[crhoads18]

I would certainly treat with Panacur using the dusting method.
http://www.frogforum.net/care-articl...first-aid.html
Ask him to replace the dead frog, if he won't then reveal his identity here. I would be thankful that any are still alive and buy from Josh's Frogs, Alpha Pro Breeders or Brooklyn Dart frogs from now on. They will deliver 1st rate animals and guarantee them. Every frog I have ever received from Josh has been in excellent condition and as a matter of fact the first frog I ever bought was a yellow Galac that he sold me and he is still going strong and healthy. Stay away from shady dealers on kingsnake and fauna. I'm sorry this happenned to you and I hope people will learn something from it.

I was already planning on treating for parasites, I was looking for opinions on medicating the wounds. The guy isn't what I would call shady, he had several positive reviews and at the time I thought the price was right. Thanks for all the help everyone.

[Kurt]

I don't think there is a need to treat any wounds, none appear serious.

[crhoads18]

I wrote the seller, and here is what he wrote back:
"I appreciate you contacting me. First off, let apologize for the DOA. If the DOA occurred within my terms of live arrival guarantee, I'll be more than happy to issue whatever you think is a fair refund.

1. Were the temperatures at your location between 50-80F? I clearly state in my ads that if temps are outside of that range on the day of delivery, the live arrival guarantee is void.

2. Were you home at the time of the package delivery?

I would also need to see the photographs you have of the DOA frog......now, as to the other frogs being scarred up, that is simply not the case. Those frogs were in perfect health when I shipped them and had absolutely zero scars. They had been in my care for several months and both my girlfriend AND the person I purchased them from can verify this. I also have pictures of the frogs to verify their health and good condition.

Stress is an unavoidable factor when shipping live animals, and I'm sure you're aware of this. Just provide me the proper info and evidence and I'll make sure you're taken care of. Thanks!"