Faking His Death

[crhoads18]

I was raising tadpoles and this guy came out of the water with my other Hyla versicolors. I was grouping them into cups and I noticed that three of the froglets lacked color in their eyes. That's right, their eyes are solid black! Well, two of the three died in the first few weeks, however, this guy has made it. Here is a picture of him with what was his cage mate.
This is the close up of Respawn (the solid eyed froglet)


And the background shot of his tank mate for comparison on eyes:



One day, I was changing out their moss to be cleaned and Respawn fell from the cup to the moss, stretched out and became lifeless. I thought he died, but I put him in a separate cup with clean, very moist paper towels. As much as he looked dead, he is one of my favorite frogs, so I did not want to admit he died.

I came around to admitting it and went to take him out of the cup and bury him later and when I touched him, he jumped. I have kept him in a separate container, but when I clean his container, he now has a ritual.
1. He shakes for about 1-2 seconds.
2. He falls to the ground- or my finger, whichever is closest.
3. He stretches out his legs.
4. He sucks in.
5. He plays dead.

This lasts from 2-6 minutes and then he flips back over and hops away. The last time I cleaned his cage, I took some pictures of this act. (Keep in mind, I try not to touch him while cleaning; this is not something that I want him to do nor is it something that I try to encourage or provoke him until he does it.) The pictures seem harsh, but keep in mind, he IS alive and he does flip back over and return to normal.




He simply lays lifeless.

Then, he snaps out of it and rolls over:


And hops away:


I searched the site for frogs playing dead or fainting and found nothing. I would also like to know why his eyes are solid black. Anyone have any ideas? Also, has anyone had this experience?

Thanks for any input you have.

[Jace]

I'm afraid I have no experience with that type of behaviour, nor have I heard of it before. But I have to say, that is one adorable frog! I hope he continues to thrive and I would love to see more pictures of him as he grows. I have heard of frogs with completely black eyes, but I have yet to read a decent explanation as to why it happens. Best of luck with him.

[crhoads18]

It may also be important to know that the tadpoles were wild caught. I say he is Hyla veriscolor because the others were, but that MAY not be the case. I just thought I would add this bit of information in case it helps.

[TheMaskedMan]

Question?.....so were the other 2 that you thought that died?....really die??? Or do you think they were faking it too?..

[crhoads18]

Question?.....so were the other 2 that you thought that died?....really die??? Or do you think they were faking it too?..

I have wondered this too since Respawn does it. However, I do think they were dead. They were on their backs in the moss and looked slimy and they had started to sink in. They actually started to deteriorate when they died where Respawn looked the same that night as he had that morning.

[TheMaskedMan]

Yea thats sounds like they were dead.... Frogs are delicate, one momment they are fine, turn around for a momment and they are dead. Ive had a few die for no apparent reason.

[Eel Noob]

Interesting to find out how that dark eye would turn out like.

They're even smaller than when I first rescued mines.

[UncleChester]

That's somewhat disturbing. I wonder if it's a voluntary response. "Respawn" is an excellent name for him though

I recently ran across a Green frog, Rana Clamitans, that had near-pitch black eyes (picture is attached). Its body was the darkest I had ever seen though, unlike your little Gray whose appearance is otherwise normal. I have no idea what causes this.

[charlamanda]

Humm! I know i'm repeating myself but, I am familiar with lots of these little fellas. (I slept late today, not feeling so hot so forgive my puncuation and spelling, LOL)
I noticed as little froglets there eyes tend to be black, but only when the light is dim. When Tiny performed this flip and flop, he did die, but i am wondering if there is a neurological problem here. Like narcaleptcy, or more likely, a seizure condition? or another type of stress response? The function that causes our eyes to react to the light and dark is a neurological function and if this little froglet does have a problem it could explain the eyes unable to, in a sense, close or focus because of the pupiliar response not initiating! I really hate to say this, but I truely beleive that this froglet have some kind or a neurological problem(immature or damaged) or some type of mineral or chemical deficiency.
I too have, now 13, Gray Treefroglets I raised from tadpoles and I really hate to see them with problems, I am truely a sucker for the ill, probably because I am too
It maybe a problem that may pass due to a underdeveloped neurological system, a eviromental toxin, or maybe a permanent one that may only worsen and most likely the froglet will....expire.
I hate to even say this, but before I went to nursing school I majored in Mechanical Engineering and Biology, I am very ambishes and I have been in the medical feild as a Medical assistant and xray tech for almost 22 years,I've seen this before in mice and humans and it doesn't end well!
It is alwayspossible, however, that this little fella will be fine and I am sure everyone will hope for that as much as I am. Keep us posted!

[charlamanda]

Oh, I forgot! Where did you find these guys? Is the water poluted, that you know of, or is it in an area that has a lot of run off from a roadway, factory or anything else that could harm the frogs?

If it is an enviromental toxin I am wondering if there is something you could try like, folic acid or something benign for the frog that could either neutralize or detoxify the frog without harming it?
Can anyone suggest something like this for her to try? or can she give the frog any supplements like Ca or Mg or a Pedialyte bath at this stage of developement that won't harm the froglet?
Is there anything she can give the frog for seizures, if thats what it is, like phenobarb, primadone..etc. that is appropriate for a frog or don't vets bother treating a frog with seizure disorders?
*******Since I am only comfortable and knowlegable with humans and other pets (dogs, cats and rabbits) DO NOT try anything I suggested until someone with frog experience or a Vet says it's ok, I don't want to harm your little guy with my lack of experience with them.
Best of luck and hopefully someone will have some answers for you.

[crhoads18]

I played with the brightness and contrast of the first picture, and as you can see he does have pupils. In a bit of a rush now, I'll post more later.

[charlamanda]

That is reassuring, you do have yourself an enigma! This is good news, since, as I am sure your familiar with, when a person has some neurological trauma, head injury, the first thing you check are pupilary response to light, if your froglet is reacting..thats a very good sign. I am still a bit concerned with the flip and flop menuver..has he she still been doing that and how often?
I'll check back later when you can write more, I'd really like to help you get to the bottom of this so you can help your little froglet. Did you name him/her yet?

[Crystal6]

. I would also like to know why his eyes are solid black. Anyone have any ideas? Also, has anyone had this experience?.

My White's can have "solid black" eyes too. Or at least it would appear that way. I think he secretly has brown around his eyes but they are hard to see without a camera's flash illuminating all the details.

Your frog is smaller then mine so I'm guessing that helps in making it hard to see too. But as long as his eyes gain color when you turn on some lights there's probably no problem.

[SethD]

It sounds like a classic case of insufficient blood calcium caused by not enough calcium in the diet. Stress or excitement such as handling, feeding, or just opening the enclosure often can cause such occurrences as you describe in calcium deficient frogs. This problem is unlikely to be a neurological disorder and almost certainly can be fixed by increasing the calcium levels in the diet. If no change is made the froglet will probably die within a month or two at the most though. Better act as quickly as possible.

[crhoads18]

It sounds like a classic case of insufficient blood calcium caused by not enough calcium in the diet. Stress or excitement such as handling, feeding, or just opening the enclosure often can cause such occurrences as you describe in calcium deficient frogs. This problem is unlikely to be a neurological disorder and almost certainly can be fixed by increasing the calcium levels in the diet.

I honestly hadn't thought of that before. I use Rep-Cal Calcium with VIT.D3 and Rep-Cal Herptivite, but perhaps he just isn't getting enough. I feed all of my frog-lets like that at once and since the others are all normal, the thought never even came to mind. It does seem to make sense since he hasn't done this from day one, it is just a recent occurrence. Thank you very much for pointing that out to me.

[TheMaskedMan]

Whats the best/suggested calcium product to give your frogs?...

[IgbyKibbits]

I'd keep him separated for the time being and feed him away from the crew. Perhaps the others weren't letting him get his share! See if his behavior improves once you KNOW he is getting enough calcium!

[Elphie]

My toads, when really small, if turned onto their backs would do the same thing. I called it "Playing dead toad". I always just chalked it up to a defense mechanism. Once they felt safe and realized there was no danger in their environment, they flipped back over. My assumption is that it an automatic response to a fall in nature. If they fall in nature, they have no idea what they are falling into so their best chance for survival is to play dead until they assess the situation. My toads are all wild caught and as they get older and more comfortable with me, they no longer do it.

[flybyferns]

My toads, when really small, if turned onto their backs would do the same thing. I called it "Playing dead toad". I always just chalked it up to a defense mechanism. Once they felt safe and realized there was no danger in their environment, they flipped back over. My assumption is that it an automatic response to a fall in nature. If they fall in nature, they have no idea what they are falling into so their best chance for survival is to play dead until they assess the situation. My toads are all wild caught and as they get older and more comfortable with me, they no longer do it.

I rescued a red eye (froglet) about 1 1/2 years ago. He was in really bad shape. My vet bill cost me ten times more than the forg did. He had injuries/ parasites/ and was severely malnourished having been kept w/ some kind of newt? He did something similar to this. He was in a quarantine tank for 6 months. He use to start to climb down to get a cricket, get about an inch from the bottom , and make a little leap only to flatten out spread-eagle. He use to stay that way for at least 5 minutes. The vet ( a good herp vet) was convinced it was due to a severe calcium deficiency and did not expect him to live.
She said it was probably painful?

I was never convinced of that? Plus he has developed normally. In retrospect, I think it was severe stress! Don't know.

WELL- he is alive and well. Very shy though! On the small side. I have to keep an eye on him.

I have had many,many pets in my life. I have never worked so hard to save a little creature as I did for him.

Lynn

[NetworkLabs]

Hi, I have been reading this post and thought about the black eye. It could be Genetics! Maybe the normal eye color is a dominant trait while the recessive is a black colored eye. And maybe in this case, the frogs parents had recessive genes, and gave it to this frog! I'm not saying this is a fact, but is it a possibility?