Dart frogs for a beginner

[bogalog]

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate the help.

Specifically, I am looking at Dendrobates tinctorius azureus, would a 12x12x18" tank be enough for one? I can only manage one tank where i am at the moment, and cant risk having to buy a second if they become territorial. Of course, if they are much happier in pairs or groups I will have to rethink it, the next size up in a tank of that shape is 18x18x24", which is getting on the large side :P

I'm carefully reading through the article on modifying tanks for dart frogs, and it seems doable.

Ok, question time!

1. My bedroom (where i am planning to keep the frog/s) varies in temperature between about 24 and 28 degrees. Do i still need to worry about heating to create some form of temperature gradient, or is it unnecessary?

2. Can i keep azure tincs. on their own? or do they need to be kept with a partner?

3.If they can be kept on their own, is 12x12x18" a reasonable size for the vivarium?

4. Do i need a misting machine? or is daily misting by hand ok?


Thanks for the help, I really do appreciate it

Edit: From what i've managed to find, azure tincs are best kept in male+female pairs, will shops guarantee sexes? Isn't it difficult to sex them when they are young?

I'm also considering Dendrobates Leucomelas - are they any easier than azure tincs? I realise they are more of a ground dwelling frog, what kind of size tank is good for one or two of them?
I read that they are easier to keep in groups, given enough space, but I dont have enough space to keep groups, only one, maybe two

[Paul Rust]

1. 24-28 is a good daytime temp. I let the enclosure cool to 21 during the night. I automate all environmental variables so I can simulate natural conditions and adjust it throughout the seasons of their natural range.

2. Two males will try to kill each other. A male-female pair or a single of either will do just fine.

3. That is fine for a pair or one.

4. Misting by hand is fine if you monitor the humidity. Again, I use an automated misting system.

None of this is absolute and others will undoubtedly have some more ideas for you.


Edit. Leucomelas are a great beginner dart and do well in groups.

[bogalog]

Thanks for your help, I basically need to decide between a floor-dwelling and tree-dwelling dart frog now.
I've ordered "Poison Dart Frogs" by A and S sihler to read, and I'm still finding useful bits of information on the internet.
I think as soon as I've decided which frog, I'll buy the vivarium and make sure I can keep the conditions stable, while breeding some fruit flies. Once I know I've got the basics down, I'll start looking at where to get the frogs!

Thanks again

[John]

I'm at work so this has to be quick.

Dartfrogs are like learning to ride a bike - it's very challenging, and simple mistakes can hurt a lot, but once you "get it", it's pretty easy. Simple mistakes = killing your frogs very easily. So do your homework as you are.

The Sihler book is flawed, in my opinion. Actually, English language dart frog books aren't wonderful, but again, that's my opinion. Sihler's book is the one that has a double false bottom and no real substrate - why on earth such a construction would be of any use to man or beast, I don't know.

Regarding tank size - azureus don't climb much - think horizontal size over vertical size. Vertical terrariums are more for thumbnail dart frogs and real climbers like Leucomelas.

[bogalog]

Thanks for your help John, I realise that they are going to require a lot of setting up/attention, and that's why im being a pain in the *** here with the questions :P

Despite the difficulties, I'm still interested in keeping dart frogs, and I'm looking into the best ways to feed them at the moment. dartfrog.co.uk seems to have a lot of good stuff, and I'm going to check if any shops nearby carry food for darts in case of emergencies. I think I will buy a tank on Monday (away this weekend), and start setting it up. If the humidity and temperatures seem fine then I'll start looking at where to buy the frogs!

At the moment, i'm interested in "custodian" invertebrates for the substrate, are they a worthwhile addition? Is it common to use them?

Oh, and I just wanted to say what a nice site this is, full of friendly people with a passion for frogs, awesome!

[JimO]

I've kept and bred azureus for a number of years. As Paul indicated, if you get the enclosure and conditions right, dart frogs are really easy to keep and relatively easy to breed. You can keep a solitary frog. I have a lone male adult azureus who has been in his own viv for months. I have some sub-adults from another bloodline and I'm just waiting for a female to mature enough to put in with him.

I got my first Leucs as tadpoles, so I don't have any personal experience with them since I only have one froglet morphed out. I will say this, though, he's in a grow out tank with three auratus froglets and although he is a bit smaller, he the boldest of them all. When I open the top to feed, he's always out and just sits waiting for his food. The auratus froglets scamper into the leaf litter.

Although my azureus climb, they spend the vast majority of their time on the ground, as do my auratus. I think Leucs are similar.

Azureus females with fight even more aggressively than the males. Some folks successfully keep trios, but I've heard that it's usually a group that has grown up together. If the trio is one male and two females, the females will often eat one another's eggs.

The 12x12x18 is best suited for arboreal species in that there is more vertical space that horizontal space. It certainly would be adequate for one frog. A 20-gal long would quite a bit more floor space to work with and I can typically get a tank and glass lid for much less than one of the commercial terrariums. There is plenty of info on making an aquarium into a vivarium. Even with the Exo or Zoo-Med terrariums, you have to do some modifications for dart frogs. For example, most of the screened top has be be covered with glass or plastic to keep the humidity up and you have to be pretty diligent about plugging small openings if you want it to be fruit-fly escape proof. I have one Exo terrarium and even small crickets manage to escape.

All in all, dart frogs aren't really any more difficult than any other type of frog. I'd say go for it, but then again, I'm biased.

[Paul Rust]

Lot's of good stuff here guys.
As far as critters in the substrate go, absolutely yes. I always keep springtails going strong in my dart enclosures, particularly thumbnail frogs. But the larger ones enjoy hunting them down too. I can't really prove it but I think they keep the viv healthy.
Sounds like you are going to be a good Dart Frog keeper!

[Paul Rust]

Oh, I almost forgot. I culture twice as many fruit flies as I need. They won't go to waste because I give them a treat of lots of flies now and then. I don't want to run out. I feed them pinhead crickets as a snack now and then too, they go nuts for them!

[bogalog]

Ok, im going to get started on the fruit flies next week, and there are plenty of woodlice that i can trial in my tank from my garden

You say you use an automated misting system Paul, is that similar to the repti-fogger humidifier? I have found this for about £50, and am very tempted as I dont want to miss spraying the tank and get into problems.

I am going to go to southern aquatics (local shop for aquariums, where I originally found the milk tree frogs) and have a look at the fish tanks that I could possibly modify. Seems like a perfect excuse to buy that dremel tool I wanted a while back!


I have a new worry now.... that once I am setup with the fruit fly colonies and some experience under my belt, it will be too hard to say no to more tanks of frogs